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Discussion Obfuscated gameplay is here to stay (in twin analog stick + KBM)

Thread Description
remakes, gameplay, design trends, dead genre enjoyer yells at industry

boloros

varishangout.com
This comes about because of the Resident Evil 4 remake (of course.) Who knew a shitty remake everyone with discernment knew was going to suck in some way could wring so much commentary outside of its censorship and laughable voice performances.


The Electric Underground guy sent me on this train of thought with the concept 'arcade presence' as a measuring stick to keep the home console and PC efforts accountable for wasting your time from a design standpoint. When you have viable arcades available, coming back home to a title with lackluster feedback and 'are we there yet' pacing is not going to be forgiven easily.
This remake and many modern games are the dark side of Style Over Substance: they are never dubbed as such because they don't live up to the positive connotations of the term.

This ailment seems prevalent in third person, as first person tends to go closer to whatever is popular. Nevermind being capable of past glories, I have an example that really shows devs who can't help themselves probably save time by not designing a good base: Max Payne 3. Long story short, level design was anemic with constant cutscene loading and story so unpalatable it had to be pointed out to me that the gunplay was actually very good in order to notice, it was merely stuck in between sessions of rockstar wanking itself silly over abusing the character of Max. They could have honestly made it play like Spec-ops the line (unimpressively) or any twinstick shooter + bullet time and I would not have noticed. Leaving the gunplay as sluggish and immersive as the movement might have cut a bit of dev time as well.

Modern design isn't a complete package, it's style without substance, wobbly aiming and drunken movement not in service to the rest of the game but its stylistically imposed principle. Not about how you game but how you 'feel' you game.

I would personally compare it with Doom gameplay mods, specifically GZDoom. Outside those offering complete rebalancing like Demonsteele, it's about the feel and the style and not much beyond -just throw ColorfulHell at it for enemy variety; when you grow out of it and start picking at how level designers originally balanced their maps, the behemoth sourceport for famous mods goes basically untouched while there are still gameplay demos being uploaded of new wads, in vanilla or Boom compatible format.

gzdoom_dsdadoom.png

top: GZDoom, Project Brutality. bottom: DSDADoom

A modern mantra pointed out in the electric underground video is to have twinstick control. This allows for obfuscated feedback and dish out a 'feel'. Nothing can be built on top of this, so we a are left with visuals. Hold no candles for character design in AAA 3D, as for environment? Texturing magic is gone, advancements have gone the way of chugging VRAM and letting the engine lighting drag it along.
Makes sense why tactical strategy got massively downsized, thinking about this makes me want to check out XCOM2 after getting my fill of UFO Defense and see if the complaints about the sequel can be explained along this chase of 'style'.


I singled out 3rd person games and twinstick controls but yet another prominent KMB example is the SWAT spinoff games and their succesor. SWAT 3 as a laudable base, SWAT4 then downgrades certain aspects like squad AI but making it much more readable and aesthetically adapted to its time (which didn't have glaring vices like brown filters or camera shake). Now Ready Or Not AI has received quite the complaints, gives you aim down sights and obfuscates NPC animations in order to appear more intense.

tactical_shooter_evo.png

side by side: SWAT 3 gameplay, SWAT4 gameplay without HUD, screenshot of immersive Ready or Not gameplay while aiming down sights.

Games went from vertical design to do their gameplay loops well to a horizontal 'experience' in order to realize a 'vision' that increasingly converges to a single form of gameplay per genre (or rather, just perspective from which you play). Developers are people, and like you see in the warm reception of capcom remakes that do away with the entire gameplay of the original titles, people often have pretty bad taste and it will show in their creative work when lacking dedication, expertise or vision... or an arcade scene to point at and say "Can't you do something like that?"

If you got any examples of gameplay out of modern paradigms that you would recommend, do not hesitate to post it.
Hurts, realizing these things while sucking majorly at STGs.
 

JP_Loyalist

varishangout.com
Sorry but regardless of the points you make. The remake of Resident Evil 4 is one of the best games I have ever played. Sorry but people ripping on the remake are very much whining just for the sake of it. The remake has it's issues sure but so did the original. The remake fixed pretty much every issue with the OG. The voice acting was one of the better performances in the resi franchise and the censorship is a non issue for this game specifically. Like sure you cannot look at ashleys panties but her thighs are adequate. They made ada HOTTER SOMEHOW. By far one of my favorite games of all time even beating out the original which was plagued with many issues despite the high praise. I will not argue this by the way. I have my belief and nothing will change it regarding this game. This is a hill I will very much die on.
 
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boloros

varishangout.com
beating out the original which was plagued with many issues despite the high praise.
Was the stop-and-aim system such a hurdle or is it the contrast between og trilogy and 4?

Still, can't say I will touch anything by modern capcom when progression in other genres that seems subtle in comparison has already disappointed.
 

JP_Loyalist

varishangout.com
Was the stop-and-aim system such a hurdle or is it the contrast between og trilogy and 4?

Still, can't say I will touch anything by modern capcom when progression in other genres that seems subtle in comparison has already disappointed.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it is the saying I tend to go with. Resi 4 did not need a remake at all, but the remake delivered in a way I never thought it could. It basically re captured the magic from when I first play resi 4 as a child. Maybe nostalgia clouding my judgement but I think that most people are enjoying the remake and the massive success of Resi 2 and Resi 3 remakes are the reason the remake for 4 was even done. Resi 5 remake will be next and then hopefully resi 6. Resi 6 needs ALOT of work.

The remake feels like resi 4 with a coat of fresh paint and some extra bells and whistles. That is exactly what a remake should be. I feel the same way about the Demon Souls remake aswell.
 

Hexasheep93

varishangout.com
Regular
Well looking at it from a pure gameplay perspective re4 was never that deep, it still had aspects of the original 3, that said they were quite watered down. Granted as a kid whos only experience with the genre was re survivor and the clunky as hell alone in the dark for the ps1, I was quite taken by the more "user friendly" presentation of the gameplay. Now as time has passed Ive come to realize the re4 is relatively shallow, when compared to the previous entries. And as the years went by this shallowness become more and more apparent up until we got to re 6: qte simulator.
Now after the franchise got a boost thanks to the success of re7 and the re2 remake. It purports to keep on making this remake as a way of "fixing" the game. In truth aside quality of life additions and the new "realistic" graphics. It does not seem like its any different. Now of course given that re4 is a very popular game, it could be that they just were too afraid to rock the boat.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it is the saying I tend to go with. Resi 4 did not need a remake at all, but the remake delivered in a way I never thought it could. It basically re captured the magic from when I first play resi 4 as a child. Maybe nostalgia clouding my judgement but I think that most people are enjoying the remake and the massive success of Resi 2 and Resi 3 remakes are the reason the remake for 4 was even done. Resi 5 remake will be next and then hopefully resi 6. Resi 6 needs ALOT of work.

The remake feels like resi 4 with a coat of fresh paint and some extra bells and whistles. That is exactly what a remake should be. I feel the same way about the Demon Souls remake aswell.
I appreciate that you have made up your mind and thats fine its good to stick to your beliefs, that said you should at least consider the following

First of all it really does look like you are letting your nostalgia cloud your judgement, the way you word it really comes of as someone with an emotional stake in the game. Thats not a bad thing but you should recognize your biases

Second, the characters looking better or worse is a purely subjective issue, you like them, others dont. I personally am tired of everything trying to look like a movie, but this is just a taste thing theres no right or wrong answer.

Third the Ashley issue. As you may have realized we take any form of censorship here very seriously, even if it is something minor, once the ball starts rolling there is no stopping it so it is very important to make noise now. This change may not bother you, but believe me things are just getting started.
 

boloros

varishangout.com
Well looking at it from a pure gameplay perspective re4 was never that deep, it still had aspects of the original 3, that said they were quite watered down. Granted as a kid whos only experience with the genre was re survivor and the clunky as hell alone in the dark for the ps1, I was quite taken by the more "user friendly" presentation of the gameplay.
Pertinent mention of Alone in the Dark, any look at the first Silent Hill and similar titles reminds me of it.

I did not expand on what Substance would be so I will take the opportunity to point out most times it's not about amount or depth: going to continue with Max Payne 3
Le's suppose you can load the levels of MP and MP 2 in the MP 3 engine, no hardware limitation.
They would play terrible even after balancing, since you are more dependent on cover which they do not provide (in the same way). What happened? You greatly depend on cover in MP 3 because Max's movement is appallingly sluggish.
The origin of this is flipped all around: they wanted the drunken movement both as another immersive feedback for a more Cinematic experience -FUCK ROCKSTAR- and a diegetic gameplay ailment (Max is old and an alcoholic, get it??), because of this you are beholden to cover, being dependent on cover makes you easier to pass around between scripted sequences, EXTRA: the original gameplay loop is now out of the picture.
Funnily enough this is actually planned out and taken advantage of to round out the experience, unlike what electric underground claims happens in the REmakes. It just sucks if you actually want to play the game instead of being wowed by visuals in between the experience prepared and pre-scripted.

censorship
This is the more pressing one about Capcom and JP developers. I don't expect it will happen less often since the HD revolution of gaming is all about that lowest common denominator.

Coming soon, outside of the 'modern experience' paradigm, is...
Xenonauts 2


Gotta find some 2d or fanservice title to round out current releases daring to be straightforward.
 

JP_Loyalist

varishangout.com
Well looking at it from a pure gameplay perspective re4 was never that deep, it still had aspects of the original 3, that said they were quite watered down. Granted as a kid whos only experience with the genre was re survivor and the clunky as hell alone in the dark for the ps1, I was quite taken by the more "user friendly" presentation of the gameplay. Now as time has passed Ive come to realize the re4 is relatively shallow, when compared to the previous entries. And as the years went by this shallowness become more and more apparent up until we got to re 6: qte simulator.
Now after the franchise got a boost thanks to the success of re7 and the re2 remake. It purports to keep on making this remake as a way of "fixing" the game. In truth aside quality of life additions and the new "realistic" graphics. It does not seem like its any different. Now of course given that re4 is a very popular game, it could be that they just were too afraid to rock the boat.

I appreciate that you have made up your mind and thats fine its good to stick to your beliefs, that said you should at least consider the following

First of all it really does look like you are letting your nostalgia cloud your judgement, the way you word it really comes of as someone with an emotional stake in the game. Thats not a bad thing but you should recognize your biases

Second, the characters looking better or worse is a purely subjective issue, you like them, others dont. I personally am tired of everything trying to look like a movie, but this is just a taste thing theres no right or wrong answer.

Third the Ashley issue. As you may have realized we take any form of censorship here very seriously, even if it is something minor, once the ball starts rolling there is no stopping it so it is very important to make noise now. This change may not bother you, but believe me things are just getting started.
From a gameplay perspective the game is not particularly deep I agree. Mechanics such as crit and penetration are about the maximum amount of depth although knife parries is a nice addition and with all resi games the lack of a "dodge" made the avoidance of attacks more technical and positioning based.

The "realistic" graphics never were something I even thought about. Nobody looked real, just gorgeous. The game looks beautiful and is everything I ever wanted. Looks darker, more grim, more disturbing, the sound design is AMPED UP. The lighting is incredible, the tweaks to most segments is appreciated and the horror element was RAMPED UP from the original. Resident evil 4 (2006) feels like a game that intentionally does not take itself very seriously. Resident evil 4 remake feels like a game that takes itself seriously but also wants to have a laugh along the way. Alot of the voice interactions had me smiling.

I don't think everything "Looks like a movie" as you put it. I think that everything looks good. Better Graphics=/=Realism. Resident evils remakes are one of the only remakes that are NOT making the characters look like aged sacks of skin. Regardless of sexuality Leon is hot as fuck in the remake, Ada and ashley too, even Luis. So from a character standpoint it was just straight improvements.

I do agree that censorship is like LGBT in the idea of "give them an inch and they take a mile". However for my personal enjoyment, the removal of such features was irrelevant. Also modders will always put that stuff back in. I also like how they tried to make Ada less revealing by giving her a sweater-dress but all the dress does is show her ass and sweater puppies. Also the camera angles for her cutscenes are solid.

Also something very few games do, Adas ass has jiggle physics. I get the tits but her ass too???

I think resi 4 is a safer step for capcom. However, I would like to remind you they did remove an entire bossfight, made entirely new enemies+areas, entirely reworked 1 of the bossfights and improved all the others. They added the ability to explore in a much wider scale via boat travel and gave entire semi open world segments. (Think god of war 2018).

Resident Evil 4 remake is a remake designed to honor and improve on the original without offending fans of the original. While also being able to introduce new players. For what it sets out to do, it does a solid job.

Also notice how I did not mention the controls even once here? Because the game feels good to control, better than the original. The removal of the laser sight for most weapons was controversial for sure and you can only have the laser sight on a select few now as an upgrade from sidequests but the game overall feels better and for me, that is what matters the most.
 

immahnoob

varishangout.com
Regular
Patron of the Forums
Sorry but regardless of the points you make. The remake of Resident Evil 4 is one of the best games I have ever played. Sorry but people ripping on the remake are very much whining just for the sake of it. The remake has it's issues sure but so did the original. The remake fixed pretty much every issue with the OG. The voice acting was one of the better performances in the resi franchise and the censorship is a non issue for this game specifically. Like sure you cannot look at ashleys panties but her thighs are adequate. They made ada HOTTER SOMEHOW. By far one of my favorite games of all time even beating out the original which was plagued with many issues despite the high praise. I will not argue this by the way. I have my belief and nothing will change it regarding this game. This is a hill I will very much die on.
Damn, must be hard being such a fucking shill. Are you allowed out of your wageycagey at times at least?
 

JP_Loyalist

varishangout.com
Damn, must be hard being such a fucking shill. Are you allowed out of your wageycagey at times at least?
A shill? Sorry I can find enjoyment in products instead of constantly LOOKING for something to hate I guess? If you do not want the game do not buy it dude. The remake is a huge step up and the steam reviews and general consensus agree. I hope re 5 gets a remake to this quality aswell. Not a shill, appreciating something I enjoy and defending it is perfectly normal behaviour. Say what you want but I will love the remake no matter what. Sorry if that upsets you specifically.
 
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immahnoob

varishangout.com
Regular
Patron of the Forums
A shill? Sorry I can find enjoyment in products instead of constantly LOOKING for something to hate I guess? If you do not want the game do not buy it dude. The remake is a huge step up and the steam reviews and general consensus agree. I hope re 5 gets a remake to this quality aswell. Not a shill, appreciating something I enjoy and defending it is perfectly normal behaviour.
"You know what, it doesn't matter if she has a dick!" - man that can't own his mistakes, making another one
 

Arania

varishangout.com
To throw in my own opinion there. For me the remake feels like a big step down that changes the games pacing and feeling a ton while not caring about how the gameplay worked before.
Like sure it is "smoother" in a way but parrying, stealth, walk & shoot stuff all just adds up to some generic mess for me that lacks any of the old atmosphere.
And sure liking the graphics or not is subjective but I am not sure how outright changing whole areas and segments is an improvement instead of just a change to make it different.

Like a lot comes down to preferences, but from a pure mechanics standpoint I see no real improvements there, so then I also see no reason to find the remake good at all.
 

XKOJM-N6KDI-JFKDL

varishangout.com
From a gameplay perspective the game is not particularly deep I agree. Mechanics such as crit and penetration are about the maximum amount of depth although knife parries is a nice addition and with all resi games the lack of a "dodge" made the avoidance of attacks more technical and positioning based.

The "realistic" graphics never were something I even thought about. Nobody looked real, just gorgeous. The game looks beautiful and is everything I ever wanted. Looks darker, more grim, more disturbing, the sound design is AMPED UP. The lighting is incredible, the tweaks to most segments is appreciated and the horror element was RAMPED UP from the original. Resident evil 4 (2006) feels like a game that intentionally does not take itself very seriously. Resident evil 4 remake feels like a game that takes itself seriously but also wants to have a laugh along the way. Alot of the voice interactions had me smiling.

I don't think everything "Looks like a movie" as you put it. I think that everything looks good. Better Graphics=/=Realism. Resident evils remakes are one of the only remakes that are NOT making the characters look like aged sacks of skin. Regardless of sexuality Leon is hot as fuck in the remake, Ada and ashley too, even Luis. So from a character standpoint it was just straight improvements.

I do agree that censorship is like LGBT in the idea of "give them an inch and they take a mile". However for my personal enjoyment, the removal of such features was irrelevant. Also modders will always put that stuff back in. I also like how they tried to make Ada less revealing by giving her a sweater-dress but all the dress does is show her ass and sweater puppies. Also the camera angles for her cutscenes are solid.

Also something very few games do, Adas ass has jiggle physics. I get the tits but her ass too???

I think resi 4 is a safer step for capcom. However, I would like to remind you they did remove an entire bossfight, made entirely new enemies+areas, entirely reworked 1 of the bossfights and improved all the others. They added the ability to explore in a much wider scale via boat travel and gave entire semi open world segments. (Think god of war 2018).

Resident Evil 4 remake is a remake designed to honor and improve on the original without offending fans of the original. While also being able to introduce new players. For what it sets out to do, it does a solid job.

Also notice how I did not mention the controls even once here? Because the game feels good to control, better than the original. The removal of the laser sight for most weapons was controversial for sure and you can only have the laser sight on a select few now as an upgrade from sidequests but the game overall feels better and for me, that is what matters the most.
At least I hope you pirated it. Because if you gave Capcom money, then I have nothing more to say.
 

JP_Loyalist

varishangout.com
At least I hope you pirated it. Because if you gave Capcom money, then I have nothing more to say.
I did buy it from a steam key site. Got it for 20 bucks. Not a fan of pirating large games due to the download time from torrents being dogshit. Also besides steam having better download servers, I like to leave a steam review and get all the game updates without the hassle of needing to keep torrenting every update. Too much hassle.
 

XKOJM-N6KDI-JFKDL

varishangout.com
I did buy it from a steam key site. Got it for 20 bucks. Not a fan of pirating large games due to the download time from torrents being dogshit. Also besides steam having better download servers, I like to leave a steam review and get all the game updates without the hassle of needing to keep torrenting every update. Too much hassle.
you can leave reviews with alt steam accounts after an hour and refund the game afterwards. You only need to download the crack in this case.
No need to reward Capcom with your money.

Edit: I don't care about the game, but for the sake of it I searched it and apparently it hasn't been cracked yet. Anyways, I would still advise to not reward Capcom and wait for a crack/play other games in the meantime.

Also, another thing to consider is to abuse Steam's regional policy. Fight them with their own weapons.
 
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JP_Loyalist

varishangout.com
you can leave reviews with alt steam accounts after an hour and refund the game afterwards. You only need to download the crack in this case.
No need to reward Capcom with your money.
It will sound silly but I enjoy decking out my steam profile with achievments and such. Achievment hunting is something that provides more playtime for me in games. Cracked versions do not offer that sort of feature sadly.
 

XKOJM-N6KDI-JFKDL

varishangout.com
It will sound silly but I enjoy decking out my steam profile with achievments and such. Achievment hunting is something that provides more playtime for me in games. Cracked versions do not offer that sort of feature sadly.
I edited the comment you replied to and as I already said, another thing to consider is to abuse Steam's regional policy. Fight them with their own weapons.
 

berkberkman

varishangout.com
Something overlooked with those modern releases is the ongoing restrictions to modding them to play it your way. It's a miracle that Doom mods that rebalance the gameplay are easily available. You can't do that at all in Doom Eternal nor Back4Blood. When there is some modding support, it's bound to some terms that might seem okay at first, but later on it feels like the devs (and also the mod hosting sites) are in full control with what they want removed. There's a reason why there's no mod (that I could find at least) to restore Ashley's upskirt or Ada Wong's previous voice for the RE4 remake, along with why you're not allowed to remove those pride flags in the Spider-Man PC port (unless you find a mirror). Even pointing this out may get you banned elsewhere.
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salty_apollyon

varishangout.com
Regular
Patron of the Forums
Like sure it is "smoother" in a way but parrying, stealth, walk & shoot stuff all just adds up to some generic mess for me that lacks any of the old atmosphere.
And sure liking the graphics or not is subjective but I am not sure how outright changing whole areas and segments is an improvement instead of just a change to make it different.

Like a lot comes down to preferences, but from a pure mechanics standpoint I see no real improvements there, so then I also see no reason to find the remake good at all.
from what i've seen from the RE4 remake it seems crapcom did the same they did to monster hunter.
modern moster hunter is really fuckin easy and that's all because as you said they made everything "smoother" but what they are missing is that with making it all so smooth you lose a shit ton of weight in the players actions, same happens in the combat of monster hunter

in the new games you can easily cancel and change directions at any moment of a combo which is something you couldn't do before, while this may ""remove the jank"" from the game it also makes it a lot more braindead since the risk of getting caught for not being aware of your moves endlag is almost non-existent this translates into lower stakes which is overall BAD
 
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