Discussion Star Wars General

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Discuss and share content about a formerly wonderful franchise from a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away....

Beginner

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This is a musing I find not only viable but also very likely as it relates to the overwhelming majority of western showrunners over the last few years.
Huh, my idea wasn't completely retarded for a change :noa-shock:
There is a serious problem with television series as it relates to profitability. Ideally, you want your show to be watched and beloved by millions of people, which establishes it as popular and well-received and able to generate more money. Of course, most studios only care about that last point, so thus begins the inevitable process of milking. On the flipside, if your show doesn't do very well in terms of popularity, regardless of its quality, it's more likely to be canceled. There's a bit of a problem here for those who want to create and proliferate a quality series but not have it wrung out for every last penny.
So you'd pin this on perverse incentives? I can see it.
I was personally ready to pin it on something else though: my theory was simply a childish inability to let go (how many fanfic authors refuse to finish their big, bloated babies?), but given how cynical media's become of late, I think your theory has more weight.
When a series goes on for too long and ends poorly, it's most likely a case of either considerable studio interference (sequel baiting, pushing political narratives, etc. ) or an inability to know where to end now that the series has long since overstayed its welcome. In the case of the former, I can't think of any example more relevant and personally crushing than what happened with Dexter, though I wont spoil it for anyone who has yet to watch it. For the latter, I can think of several different ways The Walking Dead could have ended up until the point I stopped watching it, and I'm sure that number could balloon even further every subsequent season AMC has marched this festering corpse (pun definitely intended) onward.
>Walking Dead
It ended at the close of season 2 as far as I care. All the antagonists from thereon out I just found... unbelievable? Like it's not that I found their take on human nature uncomfortable, it's that I found their take on human nature ran on the same kind of logic as an edgy 14 year old who is a 'proud Satanist' when he openly misquotes Nietzsche. Humans can be real fucking evil, but Negan for instance is so cartoonishly evil that he would have been killed by his own for being a threat to their wellbeing a good dozen times over before the show even started.

To bring this point back to Star Wars, I think this same kind of cynicism crept in - though it operates more on 14 year old girl logic because that's the only explanation I have to the whole Finn/Rose thing (because way to rob a character of a fitting end and kill all dramatic tension that arc had to that point).
Stories since they have been invented by mankind have always had a beginning, a middle, and an end. All three need to be properly considered and balanced if you want to share anything of quality. Unfortunately, as far as finances go, quality matters much less than pure spectacle, member berries, or political appeasement these days. Really, one only has to focus on the introductory episodes (or even the whole first season) of a series to bait as many people as possible and rake in all the normalfaggot consumers they can to become sucessful. Sad, that.
I think you're right, a lot of consumers are to blame.
No one wants their favourite franchises to end.
Problem is, ever seen a soap opera? They don't ever end. They're also a fantastic argument as to why you should.
 
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namedoesntfi

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Patron of the Forums
There is a serious problem with television series as it relates to profitability. Ideally, you want your show to be watched and beloved by millions of people, which establishes it as popular and well-received and able to generate more money. Of course, most studios only care about that last point, so thus begins the inevitable process of milking. On the flipside, if your show doesn't do very well in terms of popularity, regardless of its quality, it's more likely to be canceled. There's a bit of a problem here for those who want to create and proliferate a quality series but not have it wrung out for every last penny.

When a series goes on for too long and ends poorly, it's most likely a case of either considerable studio interference (sequel baiting, pushing political narratives, etc. ) or an inability to know where to end now that the series has long since overstayed its welcome.
My experience with this was Supernatural. I remember that the end of season 5 would have been the perfect ending for the series in my opinion. It would have saved everyone from the apocalypse but this had that grim because of the sacrifice made. But it went on and on and on. I managed only to go up to the first episode of season 7. I just couldn't take it anymore.

After this the only series I actually followed was Game of Thrones (and we all know how that turned out). :satania-cry:

This is why Star Wars downfall also hit me pretty hard. I am not super knowledgeable about the EU, but I knew enough to be impressed how much the lore expanded and was overall good. Then Disney just interfered the fuck out of it trying to out-woke other companies.
 

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My experience with this was Supernatural. I remember that the end of season 5 would have been the perfect ending for the series in my opinion. It would have saved everyone from the apocalypse but this had that grim because of the sacrifice made. But it went on and on and on. I managed only to go up to the first episode of season 7. I just couldn't take it anymore.

After this the only series I actually followed was Game of Thrones (and we all know how that turned out). :satania-cry:

This is why Star Wars downfall also hit me pretty hard. I am not super knowledgeable about the EU, but I knew enough to be impressed how much the lore expanded and was overall good. Then Disney just interfered the fuck out of it trying to out-woke other companies.
>Supernatural
See, I was ready to buy into it for 10 odd seasons, SG1 lasted that long and I fucking loved that show.
At the same time though when it sort of started veering into 'god is the real bad guy' territory...
I liked supernatural for the same reason I like Vampire: The Masquerade. Why is it trying to be Shin Megami Tensei in its closing seasons?

>GOT
Apparently that's getting a redo. Not sure if it's too little, too late.

>Back to Star Wars
I know sweet fuck all about the EU, so I was never precious about it, but even as an outsider looking in, I can see the damage done by just ejecting the whole lot. When the execs started saying things to the effect of 'why is everyone so upset!? It's all make believe anyway!' all I could think was that they missed the whole point.
Yes, it's all make believe, but the thing about good storytelling is that the audience can at least identify parables and archetypes from it - there's cross applicability to real world lessons and emotions. You know what else is make believe? The value of a dollar - currency is just an elaborate system of IOUs at the end of the day. We all agree to pretend it has hard, intrinsic value however because it happens to work.
 
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Augustus

varishangout.com
Oh shit Star Wars. One of my biggest interests outside anime and historiae Romanae. Personally, I think my opinions that are pretty generally inline with fans of my generation. The original trilogy is a classic, the prequels are underrated, and the sequels suck. I grew up with the Expanded Universe (sorry I mean Legends) so getting used to the new canon is a bit hard for me. I think they got some good ideas for the prequel/OT-era of the timeline (some not all) but the whole sequel-era is a massive hurtle for me to accept Disney's canon. They also need to fix their canon of the Bane trilogy, from what I've seen the turned the Sith lord from a genius and master manipulator to just some lucky idiot and it's a goddamn shame; and I don't think I even have to go on about Thrawn.
 

Fennec_fox

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Oh shit Star Wars. One of my biggest interests outside anime and historiae Romanae. Personally, I think my opinions that are pretty generally inline with fans of my generation. The original trilogy is a classic, the prequels are underrated, and the sequels suck. I grew up with the Expanded Universe (sorry I mean Legends) so getting used to the new canon is a bit hard for me. I think they got some good ideas for the prequel/OT-era of the timeline (some not all) but the whole sequel-era is a massive hurtle for me to accept Disney's canon. They also need to fix their canon of the Bane trilogy, from what I've seen the turned the Sith lord from a genius and master manipulator to just some lucky idiot and it's a goddamn shame; and I don't think I even have to go on about Thrawn.
After seeing The Hiiiiigh Republic and Mando S2 shitshow I don't think we can have any hope for good star wars. Not even in comics they can redeem themselves since only what, 2 fucking darth vader runs and maybe 2 mini-runs were above decent quality and everything else is just shit. I feel like all the people saying that EU was shit and it was good that Disney made it not cannon and how Disney knows it better somehow. All I can say to these people is to quote joker: you get what you fucking deserve. Man, what a waste of big universe of ideas.
 

Augustus

varishangout.com
After seeing The Hiiiiigh Republic and Mando S2 shitshow I don't think we can have any hope for good star wars. Not even in comics they can redeem themselves since only what, 2 fucking darth vader runs and maybe 2 mini-runs were above decent quality and everything else is just shit. I feel like all the people saying that EU was shit and it was good that Disney made it not cannon and how Disney knows it better somehow. All I can say to these people is to quote joker: you get what you fucking deserve. Man, what a waste of big universe of ideas.
EU at its worse was like Disney canon when it's mid. I can't comment on Mando since I haven't seen it yet but the only real thing that gives me any sort of hope for the new canon is the Bad Batch. I would also say CW Season 7 but that one arc with the Martinez sisters brought that season from an easy 9 to a 7.
 

Fennec_fox

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I would also say CW Season 7 but that one arc with the Martinez sisters brought that season from an easy 9 to a 7.
The ones that replaced that one asian VA who was really excited to be part of star wars and "representation"? The 2 girls that looked sjw-likes with mental illness haircut? I'm asking, i haven't seen CW yet.
 

Augustus

varishangout.com
The ones that replaced that one asian VA who was really excited to be part of star wars and "representation"? The 2 girls that looked sjw-likes with mental illness haircut? I'm asking, i haven't seen CW yet.
Yep those are the ones. It was probably Disney's decision seeing as they ruined pretty much everything they touch. I don't even remember much about them tbh other than that they didn't like Jedi.
 

Fennec_fox

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Yep those are the ones. It was probably Disney's decision seeing as they ruined pretty much everything they touch. I don't even remember much about them tbh other than that they didn't like Jedi.
TBH when I first saw them they looked out of place. Like from different franchise, they didn't look "Star wars" to me at all. I feel like we can't have even attractive female characters anymore as everything needs to conform to the woke reality for some reason.
 

Augustus

varishangout.com
TBH when I first saw them they looked out of place. Like from different franchise, they didn't look "Star wars" to me at all. I feel like we can't have even attractive female characters anymore as everything needs to conform to the woke reality for some reason.
Yeah and the funny thing is that even as "strong independent women" they failed miserably. They constantly fucked up and had to rely on Asoka to bail them out constantly. I have no goddamn clue what Disney was thinking.
 

Fennec_fox

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Yeah and the funny thing is that even as "strong independent women" they failed miserably. They constantly fucked up and had to rely on Asoka to bail them out constantly. I have no goddamn clue what Disney was thinking.
Well at least Clone wars has ended. But apparently Bad Batch is supposed to be a sequel so I wonder how can they fuck it up with their wokeness.:hana-disgust:
 

Fennec_fox

varishangout.com
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Star Wars might just be saved. Holy shit.
I doubt it, after those 6 years I don't think Dave can do much to amend all the damage since even in his show we had some weird two woke characters that looked out of blue there. Why am I saying this? Simple, if he can get even a bit woke, that means he will compromise in the future. Not to mention him working with Favrou was not that great in Mando S2. But if I were to appoint one person to take over star wars (that wasn't George Lukas) I'd go with Dave for sure and pray that he will do some magic shit with SW. Now the last thing we need is Kathleen Kennedy to back sacked from work and her Hiiiiiiiigh republic to be cancelled.
 

translation gundam

varishangout.com
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star wars movies have been dead to me since revenge of the sith.
star wars games have been dead to me since E.A star wars battlefront.
star wars tv shows been dead to me since the clone wars tv show stopped being good, halfway through the 2010s
The star wars franchise as a whole been dead to me since 2016ish, and at this point I no longer care.

Star-Wars-Episode-III-Revenge-of-the-Sith-2005.jpg
Star_Wars_Battlefront_2015_box.jpg
download.jpg
 

Fennec_fox

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So I decided to read the SW: Bounty Hunters comic that I got and hoooo boah, does it not disappoint. In the very first issue we get some fun action going on, but we also get this shit:
Star wars wtf 1.jpg

Star wars wtf 2.jpg

Why can't they make women just look normal? And they didn't stop with the cringe there and decided to triple down on that and brought back Dr Aphra........for some reason:retard::
Star wars wtf 3.jpg

And it's just the first issue, I'm so glad this is gonna be the last Disney Soy Wars collected trade comic I bought.
 

Jahy

varishangout.com
Why can't they make women just look normal?
Because if you draw women to look so incredibly bland or offensively ugly, then you're not "objectifying" them, which is supposed to be good, I guess? You also make the unlovable cunts who may or may not even be reading the material feel better about themselves since they aren't getting mogged hard by fictional characters.

I'm also pretty sure the reason they tend to draw them masculine so often is a heavy appeal to the troons. They've been the most sought after demographic for a while now and I don't see that changing anytime soon. As much as I disagree with modern day radical feminism, TERFs really need to start doing better to protect the sanctity of women before it's too late.

This all is just another example of many of how Western society media is basically on a crash course right now, and I don't think there's any stopping this train from derailing. Hold on tightly. :dead-inside:
 

Beginner

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Because if you draw women to look so incredibly bland or offensively ugly, then you're not "objectifying" them, which is supposed to be good, I guess? You also make the unlovable cunts who may or may not even be reading the material feel better about themselves since they aren't getting mogged hard by fictional characters.
I find this mentality is uniquely Californian.
Take it from a non-American, shit feels foreign to the point of being forced.
It feels like it doesn't belong.
I'm also pretty sure the reason they tend to draw them masculine so often is a heavy appeal to the troons. They've been the most sought after demographic for a while now and I don't see that changing anytime soon. As much as I disagree with modern day radical feminism, TERFs really need to start doing better to protect the sanctity of women before it's too late.
I think the appeal to a trans audience is an excuse, for the same reason I find all the defenses of the flat art style in animation an excuse.
It's lazy, and easy, to only learn anatomy for one gender. Literally half the work to do twice as much.
The trans-types are so hungry for validation that they don't see the sleight of hand.
Here's the thing: I find people do notice, they just lack the words to explain what/why they notice.
This all is just another example of many of how Western society media is basically on a crash course right now, and I don't think there's any stopping this train from derailing. Hold on tightly. :dead-inside:
Maybe I'm just a naive optimist, but I'm balls deep into more normie spheres just by sheer virtue of who's in my wider social net.
"You know what I feel like? An old Stallone movie" has come up more than once in my immediate circle.
 

Jahy

varishangout.com
I find this mentality is uniquely Californian.
Take it from a non-American, shit feels foreign to the point of being forced.
It feels like it doesn't belong.
Man, all due respect to you, but this anti-American sentiment is not only annoying to hear, especially from you, but outright false.

As someone that loathes California more than most and very clearly understands that it is the primary breeding ground for this mindset, especially since so many things in the entertainment world are based there, this is not simply just a California problem. The devaluation of women, enforcement of the transtrender agenda, and all other general soyfaggotry is not just an American thing. It is a plague that is infesting the entire Western world and shovelling off responsibility onto one party, even if it's the genesis for much of it, is not remotely productive when you have people in your own backyard proliferating the brain rot.

I will assume you are British based on your command of the English language and how you tend to write, so in that case, I can't possibly understand how you think this isn't also a problem in either the United Kingdom or Ireland. I have both witnessed myself and been given firsthand accounts from Brits about how bad trannies are getting in England and the general hypertolerance they are demanding of people there. You may not be experiencing it in your area or circles, but the same exact shit can be said for regions in the United States. We aren't all California. California isn't even all "California", which really just means Southern California and the Bay Area.

I'm not trying to say the United States isn't a big player, nor am I saying it isn't the main player, but I am absolutely sick of hearing that this all is purely an American zeitgeist that everyone else can laugh at when it's very much an international problem. I legitimately think the only (civilized) regions of the world that can claim this isn't much of an issue are Eastern Europe (for now), East Asia, and large parts of Latin America.

Credit is due to you for being one of the sane beings to realize this sort of mentality is indeed foreign and doesn't belong, but Europe doesn't get a pass on this one. Don't pretend as if you don't have thousands upon thousands of countrymen who think it's just fine. They're just as bad as the Californian bogeymen.
I think the appeal to a trans audience is an excuse, for the same reason I find all the defenses of the flat art style in animation an excuse.
It's lazy, and easy, to only learn anatomy for one gender. Literally half the work to do twice as much.
Uh, really? You seriously think it's less likely that these artists are riding one of the hottest political and social trends right now for easy woke points and instead blame it on just bad artistry? Not a chance.

For one, poor artwork has always existed, perhaps even more when considering the commercialization of the industry and the need to get shit out fast. This propensity to draw women in a very masculine or unappealing way, however, is very much a 21st century phenomenon. Even the worst artists are going to understand that there is a general difference in form between men and women (think straight lines versus curvy lines), but the difference is that their men aand women are just going to be shit.

I also don't think this could even apply here, because as far as I'm concerned, aside from how horrendous some of the characters looked, the example artwork provided by @Fennec_fox is decent to quite good in my opinion. The aliens in particular look quite good to me, and their body types are clearly distinct. I don't think blaming laziness with anatomy is the right take here.
The trans-types are so hungry for validation that they don't see the sleight of hand.
Here's the thing: I find people do notice, they just lack the words to explain what/why they notice
I get the feeling you think I was implying that this was an overt and obvious choice by the artists to appeal to the trannies, but I don't think that is the case. I think it's more or a slow and steady poisoning of the well to attune people to the idea of men as women and women as men with the added "benefit" of making the troons happy.
Maybe I'm just a naive optimist, but I'm balls deep into more normie spheres just by sheer virtue of who's in my wider social net.
"You know what I feel like? An old Stallone movie" has come up more than once in my immediate circle.
Well, it's always good to hear that you have good people in your circle, but I don't think you can necessarily maximize this to society as a whole. Granted, you could say the same thing for taking subsets of negative individuals, but I digress. I certainly hope your optimism wins out in the end, at least, but I do not see it that way at the moment.
 

Beginner

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Man, all due respect to you, but this anti-American sentiment is not only annoying to hear, especially from you, but outright false.
Alright, I'll concede that was a bit unkind.
A clarification on perspective though... Where I am the politically active make allusions to US history when they're talking about local topics. We never had a history of slavery here, and yet the media in these parts talk about our history as though we did.
Less anti-American, more 'we are not America' is sort of where I am with it?
Hard to explain.
As someone that loathes California more than most and very clearly understands that it is the primary breeding ground for this mindset, especially since so many things in the entertainment world are based there, this is not simply just a California problem. The devaluation of women, enforcement of the transtrender agenda, and all other general soyfaggotry is not just an American thing. It is a plague that is infesting the entire Western world and shovelling off responsibility onto one party, even if it's the genesis for much of it, is not remotely productive when you have people in your own backyard proliferating the brain rot.
Interesting point on the devaluation of women. That, specifically is something that gets overlooked.
Like in the Star Wars example, people act like Leia didn't exist when they're trying to promote the latest female characters. 'This is the first strong woman in this story' - yeah but... Leia's got quite the stormtrooper body count, just throwing that out there.
>Not just an american thing
... No... you're right.
The history of the philosophy that promulgates it is French, whereas the worst of the doomsday predictions and self-flagellation is also German.
Thinking back on it, a lot of the ideas about the trajectory of history, we're looking at Hegel and Spengler.
Role of the state in personal affairs is a shitflinging contest between Hobbes, Locke and Rousseau.
Continental Europe. Post-Enlightenment.
I'll wear that one, it is unfair to tar it all as America's fault.
I will assume you are British based on your command of the English language and how you tend to write, so in that case, I can't possibly understand how you think this isn't also a problem in either the United Kingdom or Ireland. I have both witnessed myself and been given firsthand accounts from Brits about how bad trannies are getting in England and the general hypertolerance they are demanding of people there. You may not be experiencing it in your area or circles, but the same exact shit can be said for regions in the United States. We aren't all California. California isn't even all "California", which really just means Southern California and the Bay Area.
Other side of the world.
UK is... presently adopting the bad ideas of Frenchmen that the French themselves rejected.
We have our own California Equivalent here. They voted to leave twice. They never did. No one has been able to tell me why.
I'm not trying to say the United States isn't a big player, nor am I saying it isn't the main player, but I am absolutely sick of hearing that this all is purely an American zeitgeist that everyone else can laugh at when it's very much an international problem. I legitimately think the only (civilized) regions of the world that can claim this isn't much of an issue are Eastern Europe (for now), East Asia, and large parts of Latin America.

Credit is due to you for being one of the sane beings to realize this sort of mentality is indeed foreign and doesn't belong, but Europe doesn't get a pass on this one. Don't pretend as if you don't have thousands upon thousands of countrymen who think it's just fine. They're just as bad as the Californian bogeymen.
>Very much an international problem
I'll agree on that.
>Laugh at America
Thankfully the attitude here is less contempt, more 'lighten up, hey?'.
I find the thinking, whenever we see American issues on the news, is a mix of fear and confusion.
Uh, really? You seriously think it's less likely that these artists are riding one of the hottest political and social trends right now for easy woke points and instead blame it on just bad artistry? Not a chance.
These things aren't mutually exclusive really.
For one, poor artwork has always existed, perhaps even more when considering the commercialization of the industry and the need to get shit out fast. This propensity to draw women in a very masculine or unappealing way, however, is very much a 21st century phenomenon. Even the worst artists are going to understand that there is a general difference in form between men and women (think straight lines versus curvy lines), but the difference is that their men and women are just going to be shit.
>Very much a 21st century phenomenon
...
Yes, and I'm a fucking idiot for missing that thread. Post-Bauhaus, so we're in a milieu of form=function, but mix it up with the whole 'social consciousness' thing of 'equality of the genders' and now you're looking at the idea that the symbol must match: man = woman.
>Even the worst artists are going to understand there is a general difference in form between men and women
... but not if you're merely creating symbols that point to a generic form of 'human' to cover both!
Leading into...
I also don't think this could even apply here, because as far as I'm concerned, aside from how horrendous some of the characters looked, the example artwork provided by @Fennec_fox is decent to quite good in my opinion. The aliens in particular look quite good to me, and their body types are clearly distinct. I don't think blaming laziness with anatomy is the right take here.

I get the feeling you think I was implying that this was an overt and obvious choice by the artists to appeal to the trannies, but I don't think that is the case. I think it's more or a slow and steady poisoning of the well to attune people to the idea of men as women and women as men with the added "benefit" of making the troons happy.
... where I have to concede the point, because there's an ideological bent - the simplification of concepts into their hypernym symbols (It'd be like if we were no longer allowed to categorise 'pigeon' vs. 'owl', we were only allowed to use the word 'bird' to describe both).
... That means the affordance of laziness is merely the payoff, not the point - it's the positive feedback provided by the ideological framework that says 'good job propagating me!'.

You've... given me a lot to think about on that because now I realise I've had a lot of it backwards.
Well, it's always good to hear that you have good people in your circle, but I don't think you can necessarily maximize this to society as a whole. Granted, you could say the same thing for taking subsets of negative individuals, but I digress. I certainly hope your optimism wins out in the end, at least, but I do not see it that way at the moment.
I dunno about good. Exasperated I guess is a better word?
 
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