Gacha (as a genre/model) Topic

[Zurathetix]

Feel free to quote from the stellar blade thread and continue the discussion here.

I'm not talking about a genre, I am talking about a business model that makes sure you don't own your games and tries to squeeze as much money as possible from you. It really annoys me that people rightly criticize companies like Ubisoft for all their shitty business practices, but as soon as you poke the elephant in the room they act like you're out of line. Well I will keep poking that elephant until you wake up and demand a better industry.

Japanese developers publishing games on PC and console being complete cucks to Sony/Valve/"Global Standards"/"Modern audiences", and the ones that were actually not sellouts and worth supporting moved to gacha because . The console market in Japan has been dying for years on top of that.

I'd argue that it's the reverse. The reason gacha games are so prevalent is because mobile games somehow have less bullshit content policy strings attached to them than PS/Xbox/Steam games. The gacha game for Senran Kagura had a promo event with Neptunia x Senran Kagura, and the content in that is way more risque than literally anything in the soulless goyslop game it's promoting. The Dead or Alive gacha game is the only good thing Team Ninja has been doing nowadays.

It's fucking sad when a Korean gacha game like Blue Archive has more respect for their playerbase AND more of a backbone than literally any cuckold Japanese developers putting their slop on consoles and PC, despite that being a gacha game (And at least the grind is nowhere as bad as Mihoyo's, and you don't have to engage with the gacha system if you don't want to). I hope the developers won't change the game for grifter terminally online retards that don't play the game.

it's literally impossible to release those kinds of games nowadays.

Its not though. Especially stuff that marketplaces like appstores allow, that type of content could easily be released elsewhere, yet the devs choose to cuck themselves. I feel like there should be a separate thread for all the gacha talk as its a pretty interesting topic.

As an example of my point. Look at granblue fantasy relink released like last week or something.

Here's are comparisons that I was able to find after a few minutes of searching:
Zeta: https://i.imgur.com/E4vFVsH.jpeg
Djeeta: https://i.imgur.com/stergJg.jpeg
Ferry: https://i.imgur.com/1ariHjk.jpeg
These are the same designs except the originals are less covered up and the Relink versions are more covered up. Granblue Versus and Rising had the same censored costumes, except those games also had the original, uncensored costumes included, for free, so the players could use them if they so wished. As far as I know, Relink does not provide the uncensored outfits at all. So yes, this is just plain censorship this time.
Relink has the same age ratings as the Versus games by the way, so no one gets to blame CERO or PEGI or anyone else for this one.

Edit: And Narmaya as well, as pointed out: https://i.imgur.com/FZFa4ml.jpeg
Edit 2: Cagliostro has also had shorts added, this is the best still frame I could get: https://i.imgur.com/IVE0Wb2.jpeg

This isn't necessarily everything that was censored, as the edits should make clear, these are just things that we definitely know are censored so far. On the other hand, Lyria and some town NPCs are not censored and the player can look up their skirts to see underwear at any time. (copy paste from steam forums credits to op).

So are you telling me anyone of the platform holders went through everything and told cygames to censor accordingly? HIGHLY unlikely when they have uncensored designs in the fighting game (even if they are "locked" behind an option). Its the devs that chose to do this.

 

[Narmy]

The idea that some things are only allowed in gacha is backwards. Publishers want those things to be exclusive to gacha since that's where the big money is. Just like you have Ubisoft wanting gaming to be a subscription service. If they got their way it would only mean that they successfully pushed a bad idea on the industry, it wouldn't mean the old idea is not viable.

 

[PhantomXero1x]

Simply put, its a total fucking cancer trash garbage genre that should never been even in existence in the first place.

 

[JX475]

In my personal opinion Gacha is not a sustainable model as it is currently. It is a bubble that will collapse and will eventually be regulated as Lite Gambling. It has issues with long term viability. Arguing about how platforms do not allow fanservice is disingenuous at best and misleading at worst. Some are worse than others IE. Sony but some are better IE. Nintendo and some allow everything but is confusing and is a roll of the dice sometimes IE. Valve and some are amazing if Japanese devs would acknowledge it like GOG and JAST.

Also to say that Gacha only allows fanservice and everyone does not is false. They will go where the money is like Narmy mentions because companies count their money and its where the big money is and its easy money and fast money, instant gratification, because look at how people defend their use currently when there is any criticisms of the model or the companies themselves. Or "it's OK when my company does it" type of talk.

As for the comment that AA gaming is dead because expenses are too high is a deflection when these games make record profits. It's also that it is easier and cheaper to draw a PNG and put some particle effects behind an image, some small gameplay and an open world with a team of 10 to 30 people than it will be to make a game that has everything included that is 30$ or 40$ and more content because people buy it and spend more than that in their entire lifetime. Consumers should know that what they spend on is acceptance or compliance with what a company does. Acting like it's an evolution or adapting is a cope and is nothing more than being a sheep used to it's poor farm conditions to see how it could be any better.

 

[あんらい]

One excuse I hate that is always brought up whenever there's a discussion concerning gacha is "but I don't spend any money on it, I don't gamble" or "you don't have to spend money, this gacha is really generous and F2P friendly so it's okay" when it's not just about that. Microtransactions are just one of its many problems. All the time gated content, always online, and an eventual EOS which means all the time (and money) you put into it goes up in smoke and you can never play it again. And that's without going into lack of proper gameplay. If that's what you want more of then you get what you deserve.

"but the characters look good compared to modern games, do you want more ugly modern games instead??" No, but I want proper games. The characters would still look good in an actual game, and again, maybe the modern gaming landscape wouldn't look nearly as ugly if these devs and publishers weren't such pussies/weren't so greedy.

 

[Narmy]

One excuse I hate that is always brought up whenever there's a discussion concerning gacha is "but I don't spend any money on it, I don't gamble" or "you don't have to spend money, this gacha is really generous and F2P friendly so it's okay" when it's not just about that. Microtransactions are just one of its many problems. All the time gated content, always online, and an eventual EOS. And that's without going into lack of proper gameplay. If that's what you want more of then you get what you deserve.

"but the characters look good compared to modern games, do you want more ugly modern games instead??" No, but I want proper games. The characters would still look good in an actual game, and again, maybe the modern gaming landscape wouldn't look nearly as ugly if these devs and publishers weren't such pussies/weren't so greedy.

It's also a question of how long is it generous for? Of course they are all going to be generous at first, they don't want you to hit a wall and stop playing in the first 5 minutes. They want you to hit that wall when you are thoroughly invested into the game so you are more tempted to pay money to keep playing.

 

[JX475]

One excuse I hate that is always brought up whenever there's a discussion concerning gacha is "but I don't spend any money on it, I don't gamble" or "you don't have to spend money, this gacha is really generous and F2P friendly so it's okay" when it's not just about that. Microtransactions are just one of its many problems. All the time gated content, always online, and an eventual EOS. And that's without going into lack of proper gameplay. If that's what you want more of then you get what you deserve.

"but the characters look good compared to modern games, do you want more ugly modern games instead??" No, but I want proper games. The characters would still look good in an actual game, and again, maybe the modern gaming landscape wouldn't look nearly as ugly if these devs and publishers weren't such pussies/weren't so greedy.

You know that is something I see as well. F2P games at least you know what to expect and the model is far less worse than it used to be when it used to be called pay to win and using artificial difficulty spikes where you had to pay money to pass certain levels. In Gacha I notice there is some similarities to F2P of back then and people who praise Mihoyoverse etc always remark about how the production value is high and story is great this and that but there will always be asterisks in front because it requires certain characters or certain hours of grinding, logging in daily for a character or they will give a good character and then you have to grind for the rest etc. At that point why not just get a full game or emulate an older game for free?

But you do bring up a great point about microtransactions and EOS. I think the main issue is how they are in your face and tempt you constantly to buy more instead of being background or cosmetics like TF2. The EOS is bad to because not many will have an offline mode and even if they do it is difficult to justify it as a full game because the Gacha Model is too wildly different from the average gaming experience and even the casual experiences as well.

The comment was funny in regards to ugly vs good looking characters and is a bad assumption as most of us here are anti censorship and pro fanservice. Criticizing a business model does not mean we hate fanservice in fact it's the opposite. It's just we desire better fanservice and a complete package that we can pay for than it being tied to online and it being a bad parody of F2P models.

 

[Rama]

One thing you guys seems to not understand is that i actually agree with Narmy for the most part, it's just that his ideas are too unrealistic/idealistic. It's like saying the 90s/2k was great so as long as we do the same thing we did back then, everything will be ok. Don't you guys realize that's like asking to turn back time? EVERYTHING changed compared to back then. Economy, technology, people who work at those companies, legislation, globalization, culture, tools and expectation etc... The only thing that may have stayed the same is the target demographic (young adults) but WE grew out of that so they don't make games for us anymore.

I'm as angry as anyone that prices went from 60-70$, but when was the last time anyone of you bought eggs? Everything fcking doubled in prices for the last couple years, or decade. You guys want the shit that we used to have at current standard then it's gonna take a decade and hundreds of millions of $. And each game will cost 1000$ to purchase with the copies they're selling. This came out yesterday.

Square Enix: Final Fantasy VI Remake “would take 20 years”

Final Fantasy VII Rebirth producer Yoshinori Kitase alleged that a potential remake of Final Fantasy VI would require double the amount of time the Final Fantasy VII remake is taking…

nichegamer.com

Of course he's exaggerating a bit but not by that much.

And if you're telling me graphic isn't everything then go fck yourself and your pixelated indie western made JRPG crap. Of course graphic isn't everything but if that's the alternative then i'd rather play AAA shit. I also hate the argument that there's always old games or that we can replay stuff. That's just some rose colored tinted glass bullshit. That's like saying anyone can survive in a mud hut. Can we? Sure. But most people wouldn't do it unless we're dying.

The idea that some things are only allowed in gacha is backwards. Publishers want those things to be exclusive to gacha since that's where the big money is.

Bullshit. Gachas can be the fcking wild west (at least until not long ago) because they're so new legislation and corporations haven't caught up with them yet. The couple that got censored years ago like Genshit or Azurlane got censored because they got so big that some retard reported them. And no offense here man, but saying shit like selling JPEG makes you look a moron. Gachas are employing the biggest seiyuus and artists. Big corps don't make what we want and you think indies can afford that? The usual poster child for those JPEG accusation is FGO and a single character there takes 6 months to make. And that was years ago before triple Ascension (basically 3 characters in 1) became the norm. Gachas are also employing the newest tech because devs are young and keep up with the times. BA has great 3D chibis that i've never seen before.

And that is the biggest reason why you'll NEVER get what you want from the rest of the gaming industry. They are being staffed by wokies or wage slaves now. Next generation of devs who can make the shit you want all went on to make gacha games. Yes, it's because of money. But it's because they make money that they can make what they want and give you what you want. Genshit was only possible because of gacha money. While it was the biggest bait and switch, it doesn't mean all companies will act like Mihoyo. Stellar Blade is also possible due to gacha money. If Shift Upy released Nikke earlier then they wouldn't have to depend on Soyny money and the result would have even more fan service. There are many many more examples that are just emerging.

The current gaming industry can't be saved. It must be replaced and gacha is the closest i've seen to a new gaming industry, whether we like it or not. You guys be pointing to a handful of Unicorns (like Palworld) and act like everything can be like that. Yeah, and i'mma win the lottery tomorrow too.

 

[Zurathetix]

years ago like Genshit or Azurlane got censored because they got so big that some retard reported them.

Genshit got censored in beta along with Mihoyo (pre genshit fame) game Honkai Impact because of a mix of CCP and "Global Standards". Same thing with their new game. Azur Lane was also censored only in China. I dont think CCP bullshit is too relevant here.

The current gaming industry can't be saved.

I dont really believe that people would stop buying your latest Monster Hunter, GTA, From Game, Final Fantasy, Capcom game (games that are so big that they are carried by name alone) if they didnt censor,self censor or put feminist and gender ideologies in it. Consoomers would buy them regardless. On the other hand stuff like senran kagura wouldnt suddenly start selling millions if you censored it. So in theory it can be saved but this has little to do with gacha except for senran kagura which is another topic I'll adress later.

Unicorns (like Palworld) and act like everything can be like that. Yeah, and i'mma win the lottery tomorrow too.

Lol I dont think anyone said this unless I missed something. If someone thinks ripping off other highly popular slop in an unreal engine 5 makeover is going to save the industry then they are retarded.

 

[JX475]

One thing you guys seems to not understand is that i actually agree with Narmy for the most part, it's just that his ideas are too unrealistic/idealistic. It's like saying the 90s/2k was great so as long as we do the same thing we did back then, everything will be ok. Don't you guys realize that's like asking to turn back time? EVERYTHING changed compared to back then. Economy, technology, people who work at those companies, legislation, globalization, culture, tools and expectation etc... The only thing that may have stayed the same is the target demographic (young adults) but WE grew out of that so they don't make games for us anymore.

No it's you thinking that the Gacha thing is realistically a good model in the market when it's not, it's a bubble, and then making these wild analogies that are strawman that are nothing of what we are saying. Where did any of us say that things should be like the 90's./00's? Nowhere. Also it's funny you justify Gacha while then saying you agree with Narmy on their point. You can not criticize the market, and yet contribute to the market otherwise it just makes you look like a hypocrite and shows you have no standards. Just because things are not made for us does not mean i have to accept the Gacha market and i can not criticize it for the problems it has, much like you can not say Shift Up is based and great, but then criticize Ubisoft for their own subscription tactics. Both are the same issue, and yet people like you make excuses while subscribing to it and gaslighting people like us who have standards to just go along with it. Which we will not.

I'm as angry as anyone that prices went from 60-70$, but when was the last time anyone of you bought eggs? Everything fcking doubled in prices for the last couple years, or decade. You guys want the shit that we used to have at current standard then it's gonna take a decade and hundreds of millions of $. And each game will cost 1000$ to purchase with the copies they're selling. This came out yesterday.

Here is the thing about Corporations, Inflation and Profits, i will say it in the most simple terms you can understand. Corporations have to make profits(not to break even on sales but every copy or product has to make it's money back) and record ones at that depending on the company themselves and investors, the investors are important as to who has stake in the companies. They have made records amount of profits for almost 20 years now, in fact the market has doubled and almost tripled in the amount of size in users in Gaming as a whole. Games have become more digital eliminating physical manufacturing, retail costs, and even labor, resulting in records amount of profits but they still sell them at 60$ the prices have stayed the same, the consumer has been paying the same amount for almost a decade, you then add in Battle Passes, Microtransactions and even Deluxe editions they have been hitting it out of the park. Inflation has went up by 8%, this will not hurt Companies at all in fact the 10$ extra of "things cost more to make" is false, it's just make more profits, and to hopefully fool people like yourself to say eveything went up in price so it's justified. Games are more buggy on release than ever, and the 70$ is not going to change the cause of the crunch being the issue with the AAA industry. But difference is that it will go back down in prices as more companies compete in the market which is happening more often as Indies are rising and AA's are starting to pop up left and right all over. You have tunnel vision and a misunderstanding of economics to try and justify Gacha as they are seperate markets, and seperate conditions.

Bullshit. Gachas can be the fcking wild west (at least until not long ago) because they're so new legislation and corporations haven't caught up with them yet. The couple that got censored years ago like Genshit or Azurlane got censored because they got so big that some retard reported them. And no offense here man, but saying shit like selling JPEG makes you look a moron. Gachas are employing the biggest seiyuus and artists. Big corps don't make what we want and you think indies can afford that? The usual poster child for those JPEG accusation is FGO and a single character there takes 6 months to make. And that was years ago before triple Ascension (basically 3 characters in 1) became the norm. Gachas are also employing the newest tech because devs are young and keep up with the times. BA has great 3D chibis that i've never seen before.

Gacha's are not the wild west. They are not some new invention, it's just a variation of F2P-Live Service model that has existed for awhile now. lol Gacha's by Megacorps employing Seiyuu's and Artists? Is that really a surprise? I mean dude you just look dumb in not understanding that it's because people pay into it like yourself because you like these things, and say "well nothing we can do but accept our fate". It's sad. Also where did anyone say that Indies should compete with Gacha's by being like them? All we are saying is Gacha's are not a sustainable model because it's a bubble propped up by people who like easy money and fast money. You think it's a legitimate industry and not some version of 21st century Lite Gambling, like a Pachinko Machine? Get out of here lol. Also the end is your own bias and opinion anyways. So it will be discarded.

Yes, it's because of money. But it's because they make money that they can make what they want and give you what you want. Genshit was only possible because of gacha money. While it was the biggest bait and switch, it doesn't mean all companies will act like Mihoyo. Stellar Blade is also possible due to gacha money. If Shift Upy released Nikke earlier then they wouldn't have to depend on Soyny money and the result would have even more fan service. There are many many more examples that are just emerging.

Not really, it's not what i want or any average casual person wants, it's how they want to do to make money off of you. The fact you are defending this genre so hard proves that you are a sheep and can not see you are the cattle. Also if Stellar Blade has to be propped up by Gacha money, it proves only how fragile South Korea's market is, which has always been showing off test demos of games, then investment occurs, they do whatever the investor wants, leave and do the same thing again. It's not a legitimate market, it's a market propped up by microtransactions and gambling that can never be consistent money.

The current gaming industry can't be saved. It must be replaced and gacha is the closest i've seen to a new gaming industry, whether we like it or not. You guys be pointing to a handful of Unicorns (like Palworld) and act like everything can be like that. Yeah, and i'mma win the lottery tomorrow too.

Oh i see, the good old gaslight of "Get over it, it's the future, i am the young guy you guys are old" when the reality is we know how markets and economies work, while you are woffling around trying to speak coherent English, make bad analogies and do not understand the market outside your bubble. As for Palworld it proves that anyone can enter in the market with barely any knowledge to program and make a video game, most if not all are self taught in Pocketpair and taught people who worked minimum wage jobs to make games which is their passion. Someone like you can not understand or comprehend that Gacha is not the entire Video Games industry or the future, it is a segment of it. Until you understand that, you are a shill.

 

[Rama]

No it's you thinking that the Gacha thing is realistically a good model in the market when it's not, it's a bubble, and then making these wild analogies that are strawman that are nothing of what we are saying. Where did any of us say that things should be like the 90's./00's? Nowhere. Also it's funny you justify Gacha while then saying you agree with Narmy on their point. You can not criticize the market, and yet contribute to the market otherwise it just makes you look like a hypocrite and shows you have no standards. Just because things are not made for us does not mean i have to accept the Gacha market and i can not criticize it for the problems it has, much like you can not say Shift Up is based and great, but then criticize Ubisoft for their own subscription tactics. Both are the same issue, and yet people like you make excuses while subscribing to it and gaslighting people like us who have standards to just go along with it. Which we will not.

Sure, i admit i did go wild a bit but that's how rants tend to go. But let's not pretend you're not a hypocrite here when you says shit like i critize Ubisoft or whatever, when i've never mention anything like Ubisoft in this thread or forum or ever. I don't give a rat's ass about any western game, let alone a western dev/publisher. So who's strawmanning now? And of course nobody said anything about the 90s/2000s but what the fck do you you think they mean when they said we want REAL games like how they used to be. That's sure as hell not some imaginary game in the future, they're talking about the past. Motherfcker be saying shit like you can't critized the market yet still contribute to it like anyone here can affect the market somehow. People critized and partake in shit everyday in life. What are you, like 5?

Here is the thing about Corporations, Inflation and Profits, i will say it in the most simple terms you can understand. Corporations have to make profits(not to break even on sales but every copy or product has to make it's money back) and record ones at that depending on the company themselves and investors, the investors are important as to who has stake in the companies. They have made records amount of profits for almost 20 years now, in fact the market has doubled and almost tripled in the amount of size in users in Gaming as a whole. Games have become more digital eliminating physical manufacturing, retail costs, and even labor, resulting in records amount of profits but they still sell them at 60$ the prices have stayed the same, the consumer has been paying the same amount for almost a decade, you then add in Battle Passes, Microtransactions and even Deluxe editions they have been hitting it out of the park. Inflation has went up by 8%, this will not hurt Companies at all in fact the 10$ extra of "things cost more to make" is false, it's just make more profits, and to hopefully fool people like yourself to say eveything went up in price so it's justified. Games are more buggy on release than ever, and the 70$ is not going to change the cause of the crunch being the issue with the AAA industry. But difference is that it will go back down in prices as more companies compete in the market which is happening more often as Indies are rising and AA's are starting to pop up left and right all over. You have tunnel vision and a misunderstanding of economics to try and justify Gacha as they are seperate markets, and seperate conditions.

Man that's a lot of crap for somehow who missed the entire point. When did i said games are not making money? They do but that's not from the traditional gamer base from 20 years ago. Budgets keeps inflating into the hundreds of millions but gamers aren't exactly multiplying. It's not for no reason people are saying, it's actually get broke so you have to go woke. Hollywood and gaming are doing the same thing. Again, you're acting like you can manipulate the market or something. Even if everyone in this forums and similar go on a strike it wouldn't show up as a bleep on their radar. If people can't even boycott woke games that don't give them what they want then what makes you think they can boycott the games that gives them what they want?

Give me fcking results or shut it. I've had enough of people like you talking shit about this problem but can't come up with anything useful. Every time this topics comes up i'm just told to play indie, or old games or emulation. But what if i DON"T WANT ANY OF THAT SHIT?

EN translation sucks so i learned Japanese. Western games don't give me what i want so i choose japanese games. Now even japanese games are faltering so i've to go for chinese or korean. Does that mean they're perfect? No, but i can tolerate them DESPITE of the shortcomings. I don't deny many are sheeps who just play whatever they find, but you seems to have a hard time grasping the concept that someone who knows everything you do can still make the opposite choice. How are you different from wokies if you're telling people to not buy something they like because the companies that produce it are wrong (In your view)?

Gacha's are not the wild west. They are not some new invention, it's just a variation of F2P-Live Service model that has existed for awhile now. lol Gacha's by Megacorps employing Seiyuu's and Artists? Is that really a surprise? I mean dude you just look dumb in not understanding that it's because people pay into it like yourself because you like these things, and say "well nothing we can do but accept our fate". It's sad. Also where did anyone say that Indies should compete with Gacha's by being like them? All we are saying is Gacha's are not a sustainable model because it's a bubble propped up by people who like easy money and fast money. You think it's a legitimate industry and not some version of 21st century Lite Gambling, like a Pachinko Machine? Get out of here lol. Also the end is your own bias and opinion anyways. So it will be discarded.

Many points i've addressed above. But funny thing you mentioned the bubble. Can gacha be a bubble? Sure. But before it actually burst, everyone talking like it will is just talking out of their ass. You think everyone who failed to a bubble in the past is dumber than you or something? Very "smart" people in the 90s called the internet a bubble. It certainly could have been one but look where we are now?

Not really, it's not what i want or any average casual person wants, it's how they want to do to make money off of you. The fact you are defending this genre so hard proves that you are a sheep and can not see you are the cattle. Also if Stellar Blade has to be propped up by Gacha money, it proves only how fragile South Korea's market is, which has always been showing off test demos of games, then investment occurs, they do whatever the investor wants, leave and do the same thing again. It's not a legitimate market, it's a market propped up by microtransactions and gambling that can never be consistent money.

And this is where i know you're full of shit. Companies don't make money by forcing people to give them money. They make money by giving people what they want. I don't want to go on a rant here but it's basically related to the culture and work habits of east asians. I understand where're you're from because i grew up in the west but shit here is wildly different. People want this shit and are willing to pay gacha for it. The result is that most dev will use that money trying to make bigger/better games to make even more money. Meanwhile you retards are waiting for a guy in a garage to make exactly what you want but also that it will blown up in popularity so he can actually pay his bills.

If you think everyone who disagree with you is a sheep then you're the only sheep here.

Oh i see, the good old gaslight of "Get over it, it's the future, i am the young guy you guys are old" when the reality is we know how markets and economies work, while you are woffling around trying to speak coherent English, make bad analogies and do not understand the market outside your bubble. As for Palworld it proves that anyone can enter in the market with barely any knowledge to program and make a video game, most if not all are self taught in Pocketpair and taught people who worked minimum wage jobs to make games which is their passion. Someone like you can not understand or comprehend that Gacha is not the entire Video Games industry or the future, it is a segment of it. Until you understand that, you are a shill.

The shit train doesn't stop dunnit? I'm saying I AM old (and by extension most people here) so i know the market doesn't target me anymore. Again, you're just hoping for a guy in a garage somewhere to make what you want. How many people want to make their own video games compare to the actual break out success? How many people have ever tried to make a Pokemon clone? The known ones are in the ten thousands. Unknown probably in the millions. You got 1 success out of it and now you're acting like THIS is the success model? Dude, you're more delusional than those guys praying to gacha gods.

Hell, why am i arguing with a fcker who just registered anyway. For all i know YOU are the shill here.

 

[JX475]

Sure, i admit i did go wild a bit but that's how rants tend to go. But let's not pretend you're not a hypocrite here when you says shit like i critize Ubisoft or whatever, when i've never mention anything like Ubisoft in this thread or forum or ever. I don't give a rat's ass about any western game, let alone a western dev/publisher. So who's strawmanning now? And of course nobody said anything about the 90s/2000s but what the fck do you you think they mean when they said we want REAL games like how they used to be. That's sure as hell not some imaginary game in the future, they're talking about the past. Motherfcker be saying shit like you can't critized the market yet still contribute to it like anyone here can affect the market somehow. People critized and partake in shit everyday in life. What are you, like 5?

I am not 5 but judging by your comment, i think you might be 14 and acting like you know the world, when you know nothing outside of the economics themselves.

Man that's a lot of crap for somehow who missed the entire point. When did i said games are not making money? They do but that's not from the traditional gamer base from 20 years ago. Budgets keeps inflating into the hundreds of millions but gamers aren't exactly multiplying. It's not for no reason people are saying, it's actually get broke so you have to go woke. Hollywood and gaming are doing the same thing. Again, you're acting like you can manipulate the market or something. Even if everyone in this forums and similar go on a strike it wouldn't show up as a bleep on their radar. If people can't even boycott woke games that don't give them what they want then what makes you think they can boycott the games that gives them what they want?

Budgets are inflating because the huge companies themselves are pushing everything on graphics and production values thinking it's infinite growth and infinite wealth. There comes a point when that will peak and go downward much like Hollywood has experienced. Economies cycle through ups and downs. Video Games has yet to experience it that much with the exception of the COD Goldrush. They will be experiencing it now with the Live Service and Gacha goldrush as it's happening now. Live Service and Gacha are bad names to even talk about due to the fact people are waking up about the bad practices of the Gacha and Live Service model. As for not having an effect, i mean look at you lol. The fact you defend Shift Up throughout this entire conversation and are trying to point to AAA being the cause of your woes rather than just buying Indies, and looking for smaller studios that exist is part of the problem. Also Gacha and the South Korean thing is a cope and you know that.

Give me fcking results or shut it. I've had enough of people like you talking shit about this problem but can't come up with anything useful. Every time this topics comes up i'm just told to play indie, or old games or emulation. But what if i DON"T WANT ANY OF THAT SHIT?

It looks like you made up your own mind then. Everything else sucks but Gacha, just accept it because you dont like supporting small companies and you do not care about anything else.

EN translation sucks so i learned Japanese. Western games don't give me what i want so i choose japanese games. Now even japanese games are faltering so i've to go for chinese or korean. Does that mean they're perfect? No, but i can tolerate them DESPITE of the shortcomings. I don't deny many are sheeps who just play whatever they find, but you seems to have a hard time grasping the concept that someone who knows everything you do can still make the opposite choice. How are you different from wokies if you're telling people to not buy something they like because the companies that produce it are wrong (In your view)?

I know Japanese as well, but i can tell you that you are falling for the doom propoganda and honestly, China and Korea are not safe from it either. China will always censor with it's CCP trying to outdo the American censorship, and South Korea will sell it's tech demo games to the West and make any changes they want when an American investor comes right in by telling them to put in black characters, purple haired fat people, and just overall ugly female characters. So by the end of the day you are stuck with all of us here no matter which route you take. Also i am different just based on the fact that i do not buy Gacha. I do not pretend like the genre is some sort of savior and is the future of Video Games and it's made for me. Because it's not, for you it might be, but for me it's not.

Many points i've addressed above. But funny thing you mentioned the bubble. Can gacha be a bubble? Sure. But before it actually burst, everyone talking like it will is just talking out of their ass. You think everyone who failed to a bubble in the past is dumber than you or something? Very "smart" people in the 90s called the internet a bubble. It certainly could have been one but look where we are now?

Yes, it's massive profits, it's too quick, too much and too fast. Anyone who knows economics, stocks and even just has an understanding of boom and bust cycles can show you an example in a graph. In fact i will give you a picture below. While Mobile is the largest platform, look at how quickly it has risen, look at how much money has flowed in. Do you think this is going to be consistent? Do you not think this is too good to be true?, do you believe in 5 years from now other parts of the world that are developing are going to purchase Gacha on their Phone when they can get a PC? Or maybe a Console for better experiences? No they would be crazy to do that and it's even crazier to expect things to keep rising up this quick and to be that much money forever in perpetuity. Only 5 or 10 Gacha can control the market at one point, there is no room for other Gacha to make headway in the market because the top 10 already have secured their spots with everyone. Any new gacha that comes in is going to be denied because "i am on Blue Archive, i am on Fate;GO, I am on Uma Musume Pretty Derby i do not have time for a new Gacha"

And this is where i know you're full of shit. Companies don't make money by forcing people to give them money. They make money by giving people what they want. I don't want to go on a rant here but it's basically related to the culture and work habits of east asians. I understand where're you're from because i grew up in the west but shit here is wildly different. People want this shit and are willing to pay gacha for it. The result is that most dev will use that money trying to make bigger/better games to make even more money. Meanwhile you retards are waiting for a guy in a garage to make exactly what you want but also that it will blown up in popularity so he can actually pay his bills.

More like they trick people into giving them money, it's called Capitalism 101 it's how the whole economy works. But some do it differently than others. I can understand because East Asians are fooled by the whole Gachapon, the easily instant gratifcation culture. I know. But like all things in E.Asia they always are popular and then they just fall apart because it's not consistent. I am not saying Gacha will die, but the bubble will burst and become something different than what it is today.

The shit train doesn't stop dunnit? I'm saying I AM old (and by extension most people here) so i know the market doesn't target me anymore. Again, you're just hoping for a guy in a garage somewhere to make what you want. How many people want to make their own video games compare to the actual break out success? How many people have ever tried to make a Pokemon clone? The known ones are in the ten thousands. Unknown probably in the millions. You got 1 success out of it and now you're acting like THIS is the success model? Dude, you're more delusional than those guys praying to gacha gods.

All of us are old, but there is options that exist, if you choose to ignore it, that's on you. But do not complain about how the market is terrible or awful but Gacha, when you do not search for what is out there. It's no different than some Anime fan who says "i'm old, i don't like Isekai it does not cater to my tastes" but yet does not look on the Anichart for the seasonals and looks for the Anime that is currently airing that they might like which is always going to be hidden underground or by smaller studios or medium sized ones. As for breakout success that is not what i am intending to mention, what i am saying is that there is so many video games being made compared to 20 years ago, it's easy to make games with a small 20 person team that would have taken 100 people to make nowadays thanks youtube and educational videos, add AI to the mix these next few years and it can probably be 40 people that can do the work of 150. Acting like there is no options and that you have to accept Gachapon is just dumb and very narrow minded. All you need to do is look on the Steam Store for the upcoming releases.

Upcoming Releases

store.steampowered.com

maybe even look up youtube videos for recommendations, But if you are too lazy to do that, you deserve your own fate. Because there is so many options out there, but you choose not to look for it at all or ask around. Also 14k games released on Steam last year i even linked a photo below for you to prove that this is not the case that developers do not make games for people outside of Gacha anymore.

Hell, why am i arguing with a fcker who just registered anyway. For all i know YOU are the shill here.

Same can be said from me to you.

 

[Narmy]

One thing you guys seems to not understand is that i actually agree with Narmy for the most part, it's just that his ideas are too unrealistic/idealistic.

It doesn't really matter if you agree if you aren't going to follow through with action and go all doomer instead. Just like it doesn't matter if someone says they are against censorship if they keep buying censored games.

You guys want the shit that we used to have at current standard

I don't, since the current standard is shit. There was no need for Square to bloat the FF7 remake in the way that they did, all they had to do was update the graphics of the original game. Like how the Seiken Densetsu 3 and Mario RPG remake did it.

And if you're telling me graphic isn't everything then go fck yourself

I mean, the gacha games you are defending often barely look better than a flash game, so you must think graphics aren't everything as well.

And no offense here man, but saying shit like selling JPEG makes you look a moron. Gachas are employing the biggest seiyuus and artists. Big corps don't make what we want and you think indies can afford that? The usual poster child for those JPEG accusation is FGO and a single character there takes 6 months to make. And that was years ago before triple Ascension (basically 3 characters in 1) became the norm. Gachas are also employing the newest tech because devs are young and keep up with the times. BA has great 3D chibis that i've never seen before.

Yes I am well aware that there is a ton of wasted talent in the gachaverse that should be involved in real games instead. That doesn't change the fact that you are essentially gambling for digital trading cards. The jpeg thing is a meme but is not far off from reality.

And that is the biggest reason why you'll NEVER get what you want from the rest of the gaming industry. They are being staffed by wokies or wage slaves now. Next generation of devs who can make the shit you want all went on to make gacha games. Yes, it's because of money. But it's because they make money that they can make what they want and give you what you want. Genshit was only possible because of gacha money. While it was the biggest bait and switch, it doesn't mean all companies will act like Mihoyo. Stellar Blade is also possible due to gacha money. If Shift Upy released Nikke earlier then they wouldn't have to depend on Soyny money and the result would have even more fan service. There are many many more examples that are just emerging.

And if I never do then I will never support gaming again, simple as that. Gacha isn't giving me what I want either, if all I cared about was the character designs I can easily find images online. It needs an actual game to go along with it, and a business model that I don't feel disgusting supporting.

The current gaming industry can't be saved. It must be replaced and gacha is the closest i've seen to a new gaming industry, whether we like it or not. You guys be pointing to a handful of Unicorns (like Palworld) and act like everything can be like that. Yeah, and i'mma win the lottery tomorrow too.

It won't be saved as long as people keep supporting bad things, that's for sure. Though I admit it is unfair to place the blame on people like you, since the vast majority of the gacha money comes from Japan. They're the ones who need to wake up the most.

Sure, i admit i did go wild a bit but that's how rants tend to go. But let's not pretend you're not a hypocrite here when you says shit like i critize Ubisoft or whatever, when i've never mention anything like Ubisoft in this thread or forum or ever.

I originally mentioned Ubisoft because I actually have seen people criticize Ubisoft in one breath and gush over their favorite gachashit in the next. The hypocrisy there is surreal.

like anyone here can affect the market somehow.

This is just doomer talk. By that logic it's fine to consume censored western slop since we can't do anything about it anyway.

How are you different from wokies if you're telling people to not buy something they like because the companies that produce it are wrong (In your view)?

Having convictions isn't a bad thing, if anything that is why SJWs have gained such a foothold, since they complain about everything and never compromise. I can confidently say gachafags are 100% wrong just as those wokies are. There isn't always a "both sides".

Meanwhile you retards are waiting for a guy in a garage to make exactly what you want but also that it will blown up in popularity so he can actually pay his bills.

No I am waiting for people to wake up and stop supporting trash so that companies know that's not where the money is. And I will not compromise on something lesser, so if that is the end of my gaming journey then so be it.

 

[Zurathetix]

The console market in Japan has been dying for years on top of that.

This is a good discussion point but its not quite what you say. The console market in japan isnt dying in the strict sense but the advent of gacha and sociage took a lot of the core gamers and fragmented them into whatever is popular thing FGO, Uma Musume, Nikke, Genshit etc etc. The CS market just moved to whatever popular mass market normie shit that you see in western markets (COD, GTA, HOGWARTS, MK etc etc), for japan (who are naturally not like the west) the normie dominating games are nintendo games. If you mean the core audience left for gacha = dying then yeah sure. Its not dying in terms of sales and numbers though, quite the opposite.

The gacha game for Senran Kagura had a promo event with Neptunia x Senran Kagura, and the content in that is way more risque than literally anything in the soulless goyslop game it's promoting. The Dead or Alive gacha game is the only good thing Team Ninja has been doing nowadays.

I keep quoting you but its only because you bring up good discussion points lol. This is another point that I absolutely hate gacha on. What I want is a good old Senran Kagura game NOT the gacha game, A Real fucking Senran Kagura Game beat em up style with the usual SK fanservice shenanigans not some retarded card battle shit or whatever the gacha game is supposed to be. Another recent example would be Fate, even the earlier Fate warriors game had loads of characters and fanservice, looking at Samurai remnants, shit doesnt even have cleavage in a FUCKING FATE game are you serious? I am not even going to talk about EXTRA ccc we all know we will never get stuff like that ever.

Stellar Blade is also possible due to gacha money. If Shift Upy released Nikke earlier then they wouldn't have to depend on Soyny money and the result would have even more fan service. There are many many more examples that are just emerging.

Shift Up's example is very unique. It does not seem like Nikke funded anything of Stellar Blade. If you followed this project you will know that they had been putting tech demos on steam/pc of project eve for a while before nikke even released. They managed to convince Sony to fund stellar blade and after that deleted their steam pages (?). Nikke came into the market after ALL of this. So I dont see how Nikke is funding stellar blade. And even if it is somehow the case of the gacha game funding the devs' "passion project uncensored CS games", I dont see any other example of this like at all. All other publishers are putting out (untainted by landwhales) gacha games alongside censored/feminist slop CS games so I dont how this is supposed to be the future or something. Maybe when there are more examples of this happening and I will believe that this "future" is a thing. For now it is just a one-off.

Personally I wouldnt complain about gacha if it was like the old days and my CS games were unaffected by all this bullshit, it would make little difference to me like maybe when back in the days Candy Crush or something was big and making money and I still dont know what the fuck it is. Its now that when CS games are shit and if I am told that gacha is all that is left then yeah I would nope out of it. If I am told to forget about SK and play the gacha game instead nope. I like the Granblue Fantasy character designs, I want to play a real Granblue Fantasy game with those characters, should I play the censored CS game? Why do I have to play with censored shit for the full fledged rpg game? you see where I am going with this? On top of the various usual problems mentioned, Gacha games just does not compare to a CS game to me. At best it barebones imitation of CS games that is pretending to be a full game with f2p virus. While I dont have strong feeling against gacha that some might have I just cant see it being a future of anything really, at least not a future I will want to see.

 

[Rama]

Budgets are inflating because the huge companies themselves are pushing everything on graphics and production values thinking it's infinite growth and infinite wealth. There comes a point when that will peak and go downward much like Hollywood has experienced. Economies cycle through ups and downs. Video Games has yet to experience it that much with the exception of the COD Goldrush. They will be experiencing it now with the Live Service and Gacha goldrush as it's happening now. Live Service and Gacha are bad names to even talk about due to the fact people are waking up about the bad practices of the Gacha and Live Service model. As for not having an effect, i mean look at you lol. The fact you defend Shift Up throughout this entire conversation and are trying to point to AAA being the cause of your woes rather than just buying Indies, and looking for smaller studios that exist is part of the problem. Also Gacha and the South Korean thing is a cope and you know that.

Dude, this started because of a thread about Shift Up, where the company fired 2 feminist, making actual games with fan services and getting massive money and recognition for it. Now even the new game looks like it's not being censored as expected. I play their current game and am looking forward to the new one. Someone shit talk them both so am i supposed to just shut up? This has escalated so much of course it's gonna look like i'm defending gachas as a whole. But you guy made it about gachas being eViL and not just about a good game and a company who did a couple right things. And coping what? Even Japan has never done a game exactly like this before and the Korean aesthetic is extremely popular for a reason. Shitting on South Korea again just make it look like you got a personal grudge or something.

It looks like you made up your own mind then. Everything else sucks but Gacha, just accept it because you dont like supporting small companies and you do not care about anything else.

Again, i play gachas DESPITE the fact they've got shitty practices. How do i owe indies anything if they're not making anything i want? If anything, people shilling indies are the culprits for my attitude. Indies shill act as if it's the salvation we've been waiting for but everything i tried have been such a disappointment it soured me on the whole thing. Same thing with Palworld.

I know Japanese as well, but i can tell you that you are falling for the doom propoganda and honestly, China and Korea are not safe from it either. China will always censor with it's CCP trying to outdo the American censorship, and South Korea will sell it's tech demo games to the West and make any changes they want when an American investor comes right in by telling them to put in black characters, purple haired fat people, and just overall ugly female characters. So by the end of the day you are stuck with all of us here no matter which route you take. Also i am different just based on the fact that i do not buy Gacha. I do not pretend like the genre is some sort of savior and is the future of Video Games and it's made for me. Because it's not, for you it might be, but for me it's not.

The fact that you don't realize YOU are the doom poster here is astonishing. Everything you said CAN occur but if i don't see evidence i'm not gonna act like they are already here lol. Same like how some people here act like Yakuza has been woke for years, but i didn't saw any actual evidence of that until the japanese version of Y8 and those new tweets from JP SEGA defending localization. Now i can stop supporting it. But if Shift Up haven't done so then it's retarded to ditch them for no good reason. Of course you can dislike gachas, but people are not gonna quit facing the attitudes i see here.

Yes, it's massive profits, it's too quick, too much and too fast. Anyone who knows economics, stocks and even just has an understanding of boom and bust cycles can show you an example in a graph. In fact i will give you a picture below. While Mobile is the largest platform, look at how quickly it has risen, look at how much money has flowed in. Do you think this is going to be consistent? Do you not think this is too good to be true?, do you believe in 5 years from now other parts of the world that are developing are going to purchase Gacha on their Phone when they can get a PC? Or maybe a Console for better experiences? No they would be crazy to do that and it's even crazier to expect things to keep rising up this quick and to be that much money forever in perpetuity. Only 5 or 10 Gacha can control the market at one point, there is no room for other Gacha to make headway in the market because the top 10 already have secured their spots with everyone. Any new gacha that comes in is going to be denied because "i am on Blue Archive, i am on Fate;GO, I am on Uma Musume Pretty Derby i do not have time for a new Gacha"

Lol, again with the speculation. No one said money is infinite but it will flow to what is popular. Gachas have been trending for years and now it seems they're aiming for the console/PC market. IF they actually replaces console grade games (i said if) then what are you gonna do? Not play any games at all? Good for you but that's not most people. I guess it just irks me that you guys are shitting on legitimate good games just because they are Gachas. Would they be better if they are not Gachas? Maybe, but i don't deal in make believe.

Nothing you said has convince me that it's anything but speculation, just a different one than mine at best. And i think you're guys are still underestimating gachas's sphere of influence. Maybe you've heard of China's attempt to regulate gacha practices? They scaled back on it real fast and the guy that's the equivalent of a Minister got fired. It wasn't because of public backlash but you see what i'm getting it?

Not sure if i signed up for an English test or Economic degree before this conversation but yup, makes you look real mature going there. And man it's kinda insulting that you suggest the rest of the world can't afford PCs or consoles already (Am i reading that correctly?).

More like they trick people into giving them money, it's called Capitalism 101 it's how the whole economy works. But some do it differently than others. I can understand because East Asians are fooled by the whole Gachapon, the easily instant gratifcation culture. I know. But like all things in E.Asia they always are popular and then they just fall apart because it's not consistent. I am not saying Gacha will die, but the bubble will burst and become something different than what it is today.

I understand what you're thinking but don't you think you're shitting on an entire culture, just because we like certain things? While not understanding why we do it? And no, nothing you read online will ever let you understand. It would take a westerner decades of living here to kinda have a clue. People are not being "fooled", they choose to pay because for them the value is there. Be very careful treating people like idiots for what they want to buy/choice of entertainment just because you disagree. If it becomes law it will not be your standard that is implemented.

I've seen the exact scenario played out on an youtube show. The 2 Asian hosts were talking about gacha and regulation. They thought it shouldn't be regulated because adults are responsible for their own life choices. The caucasian host (23 white kid) and the whole chat (mostly western kids) overwhelmingly thought it must be regulated because you can't trust people with that. They just call the 2 asian dudes gacha addicts and can't understand that people must make those choices on their own, even if they're bad ones. Remind me which one's the independent and which one's the collective culture again?

And I've seen the same shit in the west too so don't come at me with "easily instant gratifcation culture". I assure you if East Asians want to write a book about what they find strange, weird, freakish about the west, it's gonna make a CRT teacher blush. Don't let the "Aw, westerner so weird lol" fool you, the way many think about the west is not flattering.

All of us are old, but there is options that exist, if you choose to ignore it, that's on you. But do not complain about how the market is terrible or awful but Gacha, when you do not search for what is out there. It's no different than some Anime fan who says "i'm old, i don't like Isekai it does not cater to my tastes" but yet does not look on the Anichart for the seasonals and looks for the Anime that is currently airing that they might like which is always going to be hidden underground or by smaller studios or medium sized ones. As for breakout success that is not what i am intending to mention, what i am saying is that there is so many video games being made compared to 20 years ago, it's easy to make games with a small 20 person team that would have taken 100 people to make nowadays thanks youtube and educational videos, add AI to the mix these next few years and it can probably be 40 people that can do the work of 150. Acting like there is no options and that you have to accept Gachapon is just dumb and very narrow minded. All you need to do is look on the Steam Store for the upcoming releases.

Upcoming Releases

store.steampowered.com

Or go to Itch.Io, maybe even look up youtube videos for recommendations, But if you are too lazy to do that, you deserve your own fate. Because there is so many options out there, but you choose not to look for it at all or ask around. I have multiple Japanese Publishers i follow for Gaming even smaller ones that are still making the things i liked from back then, and newer games i might like today. 14k games released on Steam last year i even linked a photo below for you.

Well, people do have different tastes, so there's that. I guess i sound like: "Gacha is the best ever and nothing ever come close" but that's not what i want to say at all lol. I didn't say anything bad about gachas because that's already well known. If anything, i tried other stuff and it's just the most acceptable of all evil so i've been stuck with it. Same goes for many others.

Though i do think what you said only exacerbate the problem. It's because there's much crap out there i'm not gonna sift through 99% of it just to find 1 game that i may or may not like. Not for lack of trying. That's why i tried out stuff on recommendation but that's been a bust too. And now there's more cuz AI? Also, you know everything you said applies to gacha devs as well, right?

Same can be said from me to you.

Fine.

 

[HYppog]

I ask myself if I have to force myself to watch all the terrible nu-Star Wars because obviously George Lucas isn't going to be making any new one post-RotS.

And the answer is "No."

Same as gacha, if developers think gacha is the only way to make a game without woke garbage, let them. I sure as hell am not going to force myself to play gacha just to appreciate things we used to have without predatory gambling machine. And this isn't even addressing the fact that censorship still finds its way into gacha regularly, rendering its only redeeming quality null and void.

 

[Rama]

It doesn't really matter if you agree if you aren't going to follow through with action and go all doomer instead. Just like it doesn't matter if someone says they are against censorship if they keep buying censored games.

The difference is that censorship =/= capitalist practices to me.

I don't, since the current standard is shit. There was no need for Square to bloat the FF7 remake in the way that they did, all they had to do was update the graphics of the original game. Like how the Seiken Densetsu 3 and Mario RPG remake did it.

The graphic is the main culprit here. Even if they remade the same game but with that graphic it would be the same investment. They just didn't want to make the same game.

I mean, the gacha games you are defending often barely look better than a flash game, so you must think graphics aren't everything as well.

Not sure what kinda flash games you played but i want those lol. For me it's all the stuff i see on steams that looks like flash games.

Yes I am well aware that there is a ton of wasted talent in the gachaverse that should be involved in real games instead. That doesn't change the fact that you are essentially gambling for digital trading cards. The jpeg thing is a meme but is not far off from reality.

You're oversimplifying too much. If you look at the list of top grossing gachas and call them all digital cards then i got nothing to say lol. Also, i'm kinda allergic against this specific excuse. If you think it doesn't matter then why should anyone's hobby matter? Who gives a damn about Star Wars or LOTR, DC, Marvel, Final Fantasy, Pokémon, Tekken, (insert your favorite anime and manga or whatever), etc.. Why do you care that the woke are vandalizing those properties, it's all fictional right? They're just paper, or 1s and 0s.

Obviously, I'm not saying loli hentai are like real CP or something, but people do care about fictional shit a lot. Otherwise why are we all here?

And if I never do then I will never support gaming again, simple as that. Gacha isn't giving me what I want either, if all I cared about was the character designs I can easily find images online. It needs an actual game to go along with it, and a business model that I don't feel disgusting supporting.

Yeah understandable. I guess the model just doesn't disgust me enough that i'll stop playing for that reason alone.

It won't be saved as long as people keep supporting bad things, that's for sure. Though I admit it is unfair to place the blame on people like you, since the vast majority of the gacha money comes from Japan. They're the ones who need to wake up the most.

Funny thing is, did i ever said i spent a lot of money on gacha? You guys are just assuming that everyone has to be addicted or sunk cost fallacy, or etc. to be supporting this. For example Nikke, i actually still haven't gotten around to spend any money even though i wanted to. I don't feel like i need to and i'm too lazy to do the work around for my credit card. But they make me WANT to support them, that's the distinction here. Of course there're people who have to rush the CC out on the first day but i think that's on them. A fool and their money are soon parted. I have seen the exact same thing happen to web novel. People spend hundreds of $ a day just to get a few chapters sooner. That has nothing to do with gacha. You can't stop people from spending money on their addiction, they'll just go find another outlet.

I originally mentioned Ubisoft because I actually have seen people criticize Ubisoft in one breath and gush over their favorite gachashit in the next. The hypocrisy there is surreal.

Can't tell without seeing the actual case but i can see that.

This is just doomer talk. By that logic it's fine to consume censored western slop since we can't do anything about it anyway.

I can learn a new language for the western slop. I'm not gonna learn how to make video games and make a new one each time i'm in the mood.

Having convictions isn't a bad thing, if anything that is why SJWs have gained such a foothold, since they complain about everything and never compromise. I can confidently say gachafags are 100% wrong just as those wokies are. There isn't always a "both sides".

Sure, it's not like i was trying to convince you otherwise. Same way i can't convince certain westerners to eat dogs even though those are considered food in east asia. (I don't either, for the record)

No I am waiting for people to wake up and stop supporting trash so that companies know that's not where the money is. And I will not compromise on something lesser, so if that is the end of my gaming journey then so be it.

But obviously you're wrong because that's exactly where the money is, why would they do it otherwise? Whether you play games or not is a choice you have to make yourself, same for everyone else.

 

[あんらい]

I guess it just irks me that you guys are shitting on legitimate good games just because they are Gachas. Would they be better if they are not Gachas? Maybe, but i don't deal in make believe.

I know I'm just focusing on a tiny part of a huge wall of text here but this part really irked me. "legitimate good games" in what sense? Do they have good looking characters? Sure. Hell, the story might even be good for all I know. But most gacha gameplay is just very underwhelming, and gameplay is obviously vital to a video game. Not saying you can't have fun without it, I love VNs but I don't consider them games in the traditional sense since they're just reading. When I'm looking for a game to actually play, the main gameplay loop has to be actually interesting, and most gachas simply don't deliver on that front because at the end of the day they are simply just mobile games, and that's not what I'm looking for when I'm looking for games to play. The only exception I can think of is Genshin Impact, but of course that one still suffers from the same problems, namely:

Time-gated content. And I'm not even just talking about characters here. Missing a shit ton of content that you will never get to experience because you decided to start playing a game 2 years after launch is awful. This is all making use of FOMO to make sure players spend as much time and money on it as possible, when gaming (at least in my eyes) is supposed to be a relaxing hobby, not a chore with a deadline.

End of Service. When it's not profitable anymore to keep it running because it doesn't bring in enough revenue anymore they'll obviously shut it down and take all your invested time with them. Or you never even got to play it in the first place because you wanted to finish your backlog of other games first. And it's not like gachas are mainly multiplayer games, they have no reason to be always online, this is just once again making use of FOMO to hook players in which is just disgusting in my eyes.

One gacha I have a big grudge against is NieR Reincarnation. As a big NieR fan I would have absolutely loved another game, but they decided to go for the gacha model which killed all my interest. Its gameplay is laughable even for gacha standards (seriously look it up), and even if I treated it as a less text heavy VN, guess what - it is shutting down in a few months so I either drop everything I'm doing and just play that ASAP just to watch all the time I put into it go up in smoke anyway, or I don't bother in the first place. This is not what I want out of games.

 

[Narmy]

One gacha I have a big grudge against is NieR Reincarnation. As a big NieR fan I would have absolutely loved another game, but they decided to go for the gacha model which killed all my interest. Its gameplay is laughable even for gacha standards (seriously look it up), and even if I treated it as a less text heavy VN, guess what - it is shutting down in a few months so I either drop everything I'm doing and just play that ASAP just to watch all the time I put into it go up in smoke anyway, or I don't bother in the first place. This is not what I want out of games.

Yeah this is what I mean by wasted talent. Yoko Taro has made some great games over the years that people will remember him by, but will a single person remember him by all the failed gachashit he has had a hand in lately? Will anyone want to go back and experience those games again (if they even could) 10 years from now?

It's sad that there is just going to be a blank void in this era of gaming history when we look back, because all the money poured into these games is not going to leave a trace behind when the service ends, unlike the retro games we still enjoy today.

 

[Rama]

Another recent example would be Fate, even the earlier Fate warriors game had loads of characters and fanservice, looking at Samurai remnants, shit doesnt even have cleavage in a FUCKING FATE game are you serious? I am not even going to talk about EXTRA ccc we all know we will never get stuff like that ever.

Well, the setting (Edo Japan) and their female character choices are pretty restrictive. Jeanne's got her usual outfit, Yui is supposed to be a man (even though everyone knows she isn't), Kaya is a child, Takao is the highest rank courtesan, not a prostitute. Dorothea is a leg girl like Rin so that's where the exposure is. Aria and Circe got cleavage but those might as well not exist. And just in case, Takeru is a dude.

Musashi and Delila got cleavage i guess?

Shift Up's example is very unique. It does not seem like Nikke funded anything of Stellar Blade. If you followed this project you will know that they had been putting tech demos on steam/pc of project eve for a while before nikke even released. They managed to convince Sony to fund stellar blade and after that deleted their steam pages (?). Nikke came into the market after ALL of this. So I dont see how Nikke is funding stellar blade. And even if it is somehow the case of the gacha game funding the devs' "passion project uncensored CS games", I dont see any other example of this like at all. All other publishers are putting out (untainted by landwhales) gacha games alongside censored/feminist slop CS games so I dont how this is supposed to be the future or something. Maybe when there are more examples of this happening and I will believe that this "future" is a thing. For now it is just a one-off.

Of course there is no "proof" as in they're not gonna make contract negotiation details public. But I just see no way we could have gotten that trailer yesterday if Soyny is still having control over the project. Do you remember how the 1st trailer was what everyone wanted? Then Soyny sponsorship was announced and suddenly Eve was covered up in that ugly ass jacket in the 2nd trailer? Then suddenly there was dead silence and they even missed the deadline. Suddenly we get this new trailer where they're hitting us with a bazillion panties and crotch shot.

It just ties into this rumor/conjecture(?) i heard from Raging Golden Eagle awhile ago. During that silence Shift Up was renegotiating the terms for the project after the success of Nikke because they're no longer as dependent on Sony money. If they for example give up on half the investment they could have reduces a lot of the restrictions they signed on at first. Just a theory though.

As for other examples: you have Relink coming out yesterday, AK Endfield, WW, ZZZ to name a few available on PC/Consoles. There was that one that looked like Warframe(?), the one that's a Souls like/Sekiro open world. AK dev is actually making a full priced game with no gacha (Ex Astris), we'll see how that turns out. If they doing well more devs could take that path, which is what we all want to see. I'll just be cautiously optimistic for now.

Personally I wouldnt complain about gacha if it was like the old days and my CS games were unaffected by all this bullshit, it would make little difference to me like maybe when back in the days Candy Crush or something was big and making money and I still dont know what the fuck it is. Its now that when CS games are shit and if I am told that gacha is all that is left then yeah I would nope out of it. If I am told to forget about SK and play the gacha game instead nope. I like the Granblue Fantasy character designs, I want to play a real Granblue Fantasy game with those characters, should I play the censored CS game? Why do I have to play with censored shit for the full fledged rpg game? you see where I am going with this? On top of the various usual problems mentioned, Gacha games just does not compare to a CS game to me. At best it barebones imitation of CS games that is pretending to be a full game with f2p virus. While I dont have strong feeling against gacha that some might have I just cant see it being a future of anything really, at least not a future I will want to see.

As said before, i do think gachas/mobile get away with more than consoles. Not sure what CS is but you should probably think of that Granblue game as more like an adaptation. No adaptation ever satisfied original fans. And if it was the reverse (Console 1st, gacha 2nd) then you would have gotten the "censored" version both time.

I'm not saying that gachas are or should be the future but the way i see it right now, they're just too big to fail. At least that incident with the CCP dude proves that many people will not let them fall for now. Too many pockets to fill. And i'm not mentioning Japan for a reason.