Gacha (as a genre/model) Topic

[JX475]

Yeah this is what I mean by wasted talent. Yoko Taro has made some great games over the years that people will remember him by, but will a single person remember him by all the failed gachashit he has had a hand in lately? Will anyone want to go back and experience those games again (if they even could) 10 years from now?

It's sad that there is just going to be a blank void in this era of gaming history when we look back, because all the money poured into these games is not going to leave a trace behind when the service ends, unlike the retro games we still enjoy today.

I would like to agree with both you and Localizersagainstthewall here. This is something I have felt as well Nier Reincarnation but also the waste of talent and time for SEGA's Error Game Reset. I was looking forward to seeing how SEGA would make the female characters of its classic franchises. It could have been an arena brawler or anything else but they instead decided to go Gacha. It shuts down less than a year. Yoko Taro does not seem like he is giving everyone what they want, but more of what the corporation think the audience should want because they know better. Corporations could care less about Yoko Taro, Hideki Kamiya etc. I just wish they would quit their own companies form their own studio's and Kickstart games rather than just have their own legacy degraded by quick cash schemes. Which Kamiya has.

 

[Rama]

I know I'm just focusing on a tiny part of a huge wall of text here but this part really irked me. "legitimate good games" in what sense? Do they have good looking characters? Sure. Hell, the story might even be good for all I know. But most gacha gameplay is just very underwhelming, and gameplay is obviously vital to a video game. Not saying you can't have fun without it, I love VNs but I don't consider them games in the traditional sense since they're just reading. When I'm looking for a game to actually play, the main gameplay loop has to be actually interesting, and most gachas simply don't deliver on that front because at the end of the day they are simply just mobile games, and that's not what I'm looking for when I'm looking for games to play. The only exception I can think of is Genshin Impact, but of course that one still suffers from the same problems, namely:

Well, you're barking up the wrong tree in the first place. The gameplay is limited on PURPOSE. You guys know it's made for 5 mins burst but since you don't live like that and want to play for hours, you keep ignoring who it's for. BA or Nikke have engaged enough gameplay (aiming skills and shooting targets) and even that is too time consuming on a daily basis that they need to have autos. They're also great games for people into collections (you don't need everything) or management simulation. The fun is in the management, strategizing, and looking at cute girls doing cute shit. If you want more then that's on you. I'm sure you have a game you think is engaging that i think is boring af too. Need i remind you that one of the biggest franchise in the world is Pokémon? The gameplay there is hardly "engaging".

Time-gated content. And I'm not even just talking about characters here. Missing a shit ton of content that you will never get to experience because you decided to start playing a game 2 years after launch is awful. This is all making use of FOMO to make sure players spend as much time and money on it as possible, when gaming (at least in my eyes) is supposed to be a relaxing hobby, not a chore with a deadline.

Sure, but there are also technical limitations. You keep all those events and storage space is going to balloon in size. My so called JPEG collector FGO sit at 10GB right now, and that's with me wiping caches. You keep all the events and it will easily be 5 times that (cuz 8 years). And it's not a big game, mind you. Average gachas will start at 5GB and get to double that after just a year or two. You want to keep everything then everyone will have consoles games on their phones in no time. I can understand the FOMO argument but this is a LIVE service game after all, they're selling the live as much as the game. Unlike traditional games there are constant updates so there's always something to keep the community up. You get the best experiences as a long time player and that's exactly what keeps people playing. For many THAT is their relaxing hobby.

And i don't get the sentiment that you NEED to have everything or that you DESERVE everything. That's the mindset that make people finished every achievement or platinum even though it's a fcking miserable experience. If you have that mindset of course you wouldn't be happy joining something ongoing. That's like going to the movie theater and expect to take the tape home.

And to make an obvious dig here, do you think that people who just come into your country deserves all the benefits the country has to offer? Benefits your family got after 4 generations of contribution? It's not like they got no benefits, they just want YOUR benefits. Of course it's not an equal comparison but i assume the sentiment is there for many.

End of Service. When it's not profitable anymore to keep it running because it doesn't bring in enough revenue anymore they'll obviously shut it down and take all your invested time with them. Or you never even got to play it in the first place because you wanted to finish your backlog of other games first. And it's not like gachas are mainly multiplayer games, they have no reason to be always online, this is just once again making use of FOMO to hook players in which is just disgusting in my eyes.

EOS happens when the player count or revenue reaches a certain point. By that point it's just extreme enthusiast playing and it's likely they already got their money's worth, if they paid at all. Keeping the servers up mean the company is loosing money and they're not a charity here. That's not FOMO as much the games are not made to be offline from the start. They have to be online to prevent cheats or exploits because that directly affects the revenue. Gacha games have to be remade from the ground up as an offline experience. Not many companies do that for a reason.

One gacha I have a big grudge against is NieR Reincarnation. As a big NieR fan I would have absolutely loved another game, but they decided to go for the gacha model which killed all my interest. Its gameplay is laughable even for gacha standards (seriously look it up), and even if I treated it as a less text heavy VN, guess what - it is shutting down in a few months so I either drop everything I'm doing and just play that ASAP just to watch all the time I put into it go up in smoke anyway, or I don't bother in the first place. This is not what I want out of games.

I get you man but honestly i saw that a miles coming with that game. That's why i quit after a week. You play enough of these games and you know which one's got red flags. They were never gonna be what you want anyway. Are you gonna be sad you can't play a Nier rip-off on steam? Because that's exactly what these cash grabs are. But saying all gachas are like those is like saying all steam games are like Star Field.

 

[Zurathetix]

Of course there is no "proof" as in they're not gonna make contract negotiation details public. But I just see no way we could have gotten that trailer yesterday if Soyny is still having control over the project. Do you remember how the 1st trailer was what everyone wanted? Then Soyny sponsorship was announced and suddenly Eve was covered up in that ugly ass jacket in the 2nd trailer? Then suddenly there was dead silence and they even missed the deadline. Suddenly we get this new trailer where they're hitting us with a bazillion panties and crotch shot.

It just ties into this rumor/conjecture(?) i heard from Raging Golden Eagle awhile ago. During that silence Shift Up was renegotiating the terms for the project after the success of Nikke because they're no longer as dependent on Sony money. If they for example give up on half the investment they could have reduces a lot of the restrictions they signed on at first. Just a theory though.

My theory regarding Stellar Blade is that since devs are such big sony fanboys they negotiated and coaxed sony into funding it as a "novel" game in sony's list of exclusives. I mean it is indeed novel in the sense that there hasnt been a game like this in sony's exclusive list for years really and one of the notable things about this game is sony of all people publishing it, i.e there is the novelty. All theories though we will never know.

As for other examples: you have Relink coming out yesterday, AK Endfield, WW, ZZZ to name a few available on PC/Consoles. There was that one that looked like Warframe(?), the one that's a Souls like/Sekiro open world. AK dev is actually making a full priced game with no gacha (Ex Astris), we'll see how that turns out. If they doing well more devs could take that path, which is what we all want to see. I'll just be cautiously optimistic for now.

Relink is censored (links in op). ZZZ is mihoyo and mihoyo is the biggest CCP rule abider on earth they censor for everyone just look at the current censoring screenshots they are doing in beta like this company is irrelevant in a censorship related conversation since its a given. Not familiar with the rest so cant comment on them. CS = consumer games, non gacha non live service games pc/console games. I strongly believe theres no "getting away with it on mobile" or whatever. The devs conciously choose to censor on CS games. If they "couldnt' get away with it" in Relink how did they "get away with it" in Versus? Both are on same platforms. They cited "esports" and put uncensored designs behind an option in Versus, what happened with Relink then? And that is the biggest problem I have, I liked the granblue character designs, I dont want to play granblu gacha, the "gameplay" is not for me, I want to play a real rpg game with granblue characters, the rpg game is censored.....

You are right in that gacha is big.

 

[あんらい]

Well, you're barking up the wrong tree in the first place. The gameplay is limited on PURPOSE. You guys know it's made for 5 mins burst but since you don't live like that and want to play for hours, you keep ignoring who it's for. BA or Nikke have engaged enough gameplay (aiming skills and shooting targets) and even that is too time consuming on a daily basis that they need to have autos. They're also great games for people into collections (you don't need everything) or management simulation. The fun is in the management, strategizing, and looking at cute girls doing cute shit. If you want more then that's on you. I'm sure you have a game you think is engaging that i think is boring af too. Need i remind you that one of the biggest franchise in the world is Pokémon? The gameplay there is hardly "engaging".

I don't "keep ignoring who it's for", I'm saying it's not an alternative for gamers, but enough of them that are starved for more fanservice get hooked into it and support its bad practices, which in turn causes more and more talented people to gravitate towards making gacha because that's where all the money is. If gamers want more attractive female characters in video games again they should stop supporting gacha. I do want to support fanservice but only when it's in actual games in order to make devs and publishers realize that it's still profitable, that Twitter trannies and game journos don't matter when you just focus on pleasing your loyal customers.

Sure, but there are also technical limitations. You keep all those events and storage space is going to balloon in size. My so called JPEG collector FGO sit at 10GB right now, and that's with me wiping caches. You keep all the events and it will easily be 5 times that (cuz 8 years). And it's not a big game, mind you. Average gachas will start at 5GB and get to double that after just a year or two. You want to keep everything then everyone will have consoles games on their phones in no time. I can understand the FOMO argument but this is a LIVE service game after all, they're selling the live as much as the game.

Yes, and I don't want games as a service, so I'm against gacha. Not a hard point to understand.

Unlike traditional games there are constant updates so there's always something to keep the community up.

Regular updates and traditional games aren't even necessarily mutually exclusive. And I'm not only talking about DLC, if something like Terraria (a 10€ game) can keep getting free updates 10 years after its launch, so can other games. And it's debatable how generous those free updates really are for gachas when a lot of the shit added is time-gated.

You get the best experiences as a long time player and that's exactly what keeps people playing. For many THAT is their relaxing hobby.

Sunk cost fallacy. And imagine how relaxing that hobby is when you are really busy but there's some super special event going on right now with shit that you really want. I'm sure it's not at all stressful trying to find time to grind away in your gacha instead of simply doing it later when you have more time because shit just had to be time-gated.

And i don't get the sentiment that you NEED to have everything or that you DESERVE everything. That's the mindset that make people finished every achievement or platinum even though it's a fcking miserable experience. If you have that mindset of course you wouldn't be happy joining something ongoing. That's like going to the movie theater and expect to take the tape home.

Stupid analogy. It's more like if the movie was only available to watch for 2 weeks EVER, with no home release or anything like that. It's just artificial scarcity. I want a complete game. If the content is there and done just leave it in, there's no reason to take it out of the game other than greed and abusing FOMO. It's on the same level of bullshit as day 1 DLC where they take content from an already finished game and lock it behind a paywall.

And to make an obvious dig here, do you think that people who just come into your country deserves all the benefits the country has to offer? Benefits your family got after 4 generations of contribution? It's not like they got no benefits, they just want YOUR benefits. Of course it's not an equal comparison but i assume the sentiment is there for many.

See above.

EOS happens when the player count or revenue reaches a certain point. By that point it's just extreme enthusiast playing and it's likely they already got their money's worth, if they paid at all. Keeping the servers up mean the company is loosing money and they're not a charity here. That's not FOMO as much the games are not made to be offline from the start. They have to be online to prevent cheats or exploits because that directly affects the revenue. Gacha games have to be remade from the ground up as an offline experience. Not many companies do that for a reason.

You said it, the gacha model itself is a cancer that can't be fixed. Telling gamers who want attractive characters back to just play gacha is not a solution.

I get you man but honestly i saw that a miles coming with that game. That's why i quit after a week. You play enough of these games and you know which one's got red flags. They were never gonna be what you want anyway. Are you gonna be sad you can't play a Nier rip-off on steam? Because that's exactly what these cash grabs are.

No, I'm sad that talent and time is wasted on what you yourself called a cash grab, when they could have worked on a new, proper NieR title, all because they saw the quick and easy cash gachas make.

But saying all gachas are like those is like saying all steam games are like Star Field.

But how are gachas not a bundle of always-online DRM, microtransactions and games as a service? Yes, some might last longer than others, but whether they last 3 or 6 years doesn't matter when they're gonna be unplayable in the end anyway (五十歩百歩). One thing they could at the very least start doing is release an offline version once the EOS hits, like Mega Man X DiVE did. Even then there's still lots of problems with that but it would at least be a step in the right direction.

 

[Cursed]

gacha is easy money and litteraly transform any licence in full bullshit in long term look taimanin license is enought for understand my point.
ik some developer and artist depend of this because industry and society is very toxic about eroge and sexines in video game but i hope in long term we can make h game more worth than gacha shit fan service.

 

[Rama]

My theory regarding Stellar Blade is that since devs are such big sony fanboys they negotiated and coaxed sony into funding it as a "novel" game in sony's list of exclusives. I mean it is indeed novel in the sense that there hasnt been a game like this in sony's exclusive list for years really and one of the notable things about this game is sony of all people publishing it, i.e there is the novelty. All theories though we will never know.

That makes no sense to me whatsoever but sure, theories are theories.

Relink is censored (links in op). ZZZ is mihoyo and mihoyo is the biggest CCP rule abider on earth they censor for everyone just look at the current censoring screenshots they are doing in beta like this company is irrelevant in a censorship related conversation since its a given. Not familiar with the rest so cant comment on them. CS = consumer games, non gacha non live service games pc/console games. I strongly believe theres no "getting away with it on mobile" or whatever. The devs conciously choose to censor on CS games. If they "couldnt' get away with it" in Relink how did they "get away with it" in Versus? Both are on same platforms. They cited "esports" and put uncensored designs behind an option in Versus, what happened with Relink then? And that is the biggest problem I have, I liked the granblue character designs, I dont want to play granblu gacha, the "gameplay" is not for me, I want to play a real rpg game with granblue characters, the rpg game is censored.....

You are right in that gacha is big.

Again, Granblue designs would have been censored at the root has it comes out on consoles first. There was just no way you could keep everything the same in a mobile->console transition. It's like demanding FSN sex scenes to be kept on the Ps2 version. Also Japan makes those "adaptions" as ads for the original anyway. You like Granblue designs from the gacha but don't want to play the gacha. You want to play a Granblue RPG but not as it's designed for consoles. Like man i get it, but those requirements are just too specific no one's gonna cater to you.

 

[Zurathetix]

Again, Granblue designs would have been censored at the root has it comes out on consoles first. There was just no way you could keep everything the same in a mobile->console transition. It's like demanding FSN sex scenes to be kept on the Ps2 version. Also Japan makes those "adaptions" as ads for the original anyway. You like Granblue designs from the gacha but don't want to play the gacha. You want to play a Granblue RPG but not as it's designed for consoles. Like man i get it, but those requirements are just too specific no one's gonna cater to you.

So you didnt actually read what I wrote? How did they keep everything in the transition on Versus then? Comparing fully clothed designs to uncensored sex scenes of an eroge is just a retarded fucking take like what the fuck are you even talking about? Dismissing censorship to "designed for consoles" and "no ones gonna cater to you" ? Lmao allright then......

 

[Zurathetix]

gacha is easy money and litteraly transform any licence in full bullshit in long term look taimanin license is enought for understand my point.
ik some developer and artist depend of this because industry and society is very toxic about eroge and sexines in video game but i hope in long term we can make h game more worth than gacha shit fan service.

Well atleast taimanin still gets solid traditional non gacha media releases which cant be said for most of other franchises.

 

[Rama]

So you didnt actually read what I wrote? How did they keep everything in the transition on Versus then? Comparing fully clothed designs to uncensored sex scenes of an eroge is just a retarded fucking take like what the fuck are you even talking about? Dismissing censorship to "designed for consoles" and "no ones gonna cater to you" ? Lmao allright then......

Yeah, i admit i don't play Granblue or fighting games so i wasn't really sure what you're talking about. But when has censorship ever been consistent? For all we know it's BECAUSE GB Versus caught the eyes of someone that they got Relink censored. You asking me that question is like asking why certain swimsuits in Honkai got censored but more risque outfits remain. The answer is: go ask the POS who ordered the censorship.

Of fcking course i'm not literally comparing sex scenes to clothes design. I was saying that usually the consoles version will always be less "risque" than what you CAN get on mobile. The mindset/environment to develop for consoles and mobiles are not the same. We KNOW these fckers have guidelines and internal policies for this so what do you blame me for? You even said above that we're not gonna get shit like CCC ever. So you know we can't expect shit like that on current consoles, like Fate SR. Also mushroom man came out and said he didn't wanted to write eroge scenes either. So it's not just censorship, sometimes creators themselves can change their work as time passed. Sometimes that means less fan service. Getting left behind sucks but should we force him to put bikinis in the game against his will or what?

Man, this is getting nowhere. And my long ass response to localizersagainstthewall got deleted so i'm gonna take a break here.

 

[Zurathetix]

Yeah, i admit i don't play Granblue or fighting games so i wasn't really sure what you're talking about. But when has censorship ever been consistent? For all we know it's BECAUSE GB Versus caught the eyes of someone that they got Relink censored. You asking me that question is like asking why certain swimsuits in Honkai got censored but more risque outfits remain. The answer is: go ask the POS who ordered the censorship.

Of fcking course i'm not literally comparing sex scenes to clothes design. I was saying that usually the consoles version will always be less "risque" than what you CAN get on mobile. The mindset/environment to develop for consoles and mobiles are not the same. We KNOW these fckers have guidelines and internal policies for this so what do you blame me for? You even said above that we're not gonna get shit like CCC ever. So you know we can't expect shit like that on current consoles, like Fate SR. Also mushroom man came out and said he didn't wanted to write eroge scenes either. So it's not just censorship, sometimes creators themselves can change their work as time passed. Sometimes that means less fan service. Getting left behind sucks but should we force him to put bikinis in the game against his will or what?

Man, this is getting nowhere. And my long ass response to localizersagainstthewall got deleted so i'm gonna take a break here.

I wasn't really asking you why relink is censored or blaming you for it. Chill. I just stated that Relink was censored because it was one of the examples you listed. It was also an example of devs consciously self censoring without the platform interference (there are many more) but you seem to firmly believe that devs never self censor and its always the platform so no matter how many examples I show you, you wont budge so I'll leave it at that. Again my point is not denying platform guidelines but that times are such that even without platform guidelines devs will self censor. Hell even when all the censorship regarding platform guidelines started by sony, it had to do with VN cgs and touching mechanics and NOT "risque" designs. "Risque" design censorship or panties being replaced by spats is almost always due to "feminist/sjw/retardera/twitter standards" and NOT platform guidelines.

Never getting Fate CCC or equivalent is a cynical paraphrasing of something the devs themselves said from 3 years ago during a Fate Extra Remake Livestream.

18:03-18:34 listen to what he says. Another instance of devs being conscious of self-censorship if not outright saying they cant release it, has nothing to do with mobile or platforms.

You seem to not want to have a discussion in good faith and I see no point in arguing further with you.

 

[JX475]

gacha is easy money and litteraly transform any licence in full bullshit in long term look taimanin license is enought for understand my point.
ik some developer and artist depend of this because industry and society is very toxic about eroge and sexines in video game but i hope in long term we can make h game more worth than gacha shit fan service.

I would look into some Gameplay VN's currently with Ninetail/Dualtail on Venusblood series, and even Gears Of Dragoon:Fragments Of A New Era, granted do not get me wrong they are not AAA high end, they are made with a smaller team on a budget where a lot of it went into Art, Music and important of all the story and world itself. Also they are great 18+ patch(although for Gears Of Dragoon it's not needed but it is a good addition). I would tell you to click on the Tutorial box on the main menu on both games as it explains the whole system, and you can appreciate the depth and complexity they offer. To me it's a full and enriching experience that fast food Gacha can not offer you. Ninetail are beginning to bring more games to the West with VB Ragnorak later this year under a new KS Project if you end up liking the VB series a lot.

I wasn't really asking you why relink is censored or blaming you for it. Chill. I just stated that Relink was censored because it was one of the examples you listed. It was also an example of devs consciously self censoring without the platform interference (there are many more) but you seem to firmly believe that devs never self censor and its always the platform so no matter how many examples I show you, you wont budge so I'll leave it at that. Again my point is not denying platform guidelines but that times are such that even without platform guidelines devs will self censor. Hell even when all the censorship regarding platform guidelines started by sony, it had to do with VN cgs and touching mechanics and NOT "risque" designs. "Risque" design censorship or panties being replaced by spats is almost always due to "feminist/sjw/retardera/twitter standards" and NOT platform guidelines.

Never getting Fate CCC or equivalent is a cynical paraphrasing of something the devs themselves said from 3 years ago during a Fate Extra Remake Livestream.

18:03-18:34 listen to what he says. Another instance of devs being conscious of self-censorship if not outright saying they cant release it, has nothing to do with mobile or platforms.

You seem to not want to have a discussion in good faith and I see no point in arguing further with you.

I completely agree with what you just said. People who are like this are difficult to argue with because even despite rationality, logic, pictures, even developers and the industry proving their point wrong. They become emotional and are disingenuous with their arguments to where they pretend to agree and bring up wild topics from out of nowhere. It's why i stopped responding to this poster awhile back because it's just clear this person is not here to debate, not even here to listen to reason, but to troll and to waste everyone's time using circular reasoning.

I am thankful you did bring up the Fate CCC because i did not see this livestream, it is very surprising to see this. It does bring a good point about how these developers are being pressured by Translators who have nepotistic positions who think they know better than everyone else and know what's right for us to see and have rather than being respectful to creators and their works, social media with botted replies for social engineering to where they hate fanservice, to where they start to feel like they need to self censor because "Everyone may not agree with the game we are making and we may not be able to release the game we want to make due to tons of outside circumstances". Then again this would be alleviated by eliminating the middle man and going all in with AI Translations and a Bilingual Japanese person to oversee everything as a whole. Which i mean when it does, translators can not blame anyone because they brought it on themselves from the ivory tower and fell due to their ego.

 

[Zurathetix]

It does bring a good point about how these developers are being pressured by Translators who have nepotistic positions who think they know better than everyone else and know what's right for us to see and have rather than being respectful to creators and their works, social media with botted replies for social engineering to where they hate fanservice, to where they start to feel like they need to self censor because "Everyone may not agree with the game we are making and we may not be able to release the game we want to make due to tons of outside circumstances". Then again this would be alleviated by eliminating the middle man and going all in with AI Translations and a Bilingual Japanese person to oversee everything as a whole. Which i mean when it does, translators can not blame anyone because they brought it on themselves from the ivory tower and fell due to their ego.

Yeah its a mixture of a lot of factors and not just one. Localizers/sjw colonizers completely taking over western branches and having a say in development, impression manipulation through social media and forums like retardera, journos constantly attacking fanservice, platform holder guidelines etc etc. All of this dates back to even back to early/mid 2010s when japanese games were known for censoring overseas (non-jp) releases. It all snowballed because of the above mentioned points to what we have now that not only it is censored even in japan but these people actually partake in censorship during the development process. We have direct quotes from localizers saying they censor cleavage and skirts because of "metoo" to japanese companies internal documents bringing up fucking radical feminist points like females showing skin is not ok but its ok for males.

Things are so bad now that apparently theres misconceptions that you can "get away" with vanilla shit like cleavage and skirts (non black voids/spats) in mobile but not in console games. Why is Atelier Resleriana adding spats/shorts to heroines in their mobile games, heroines of games that they released on console in 2021 with no spats/shorts? I keep pointing out these examples but apparently they dont count somehow, theres more and anyone can look them up. The whole vanila censorship discussion is not a cut and dry one like "you can get away with it on mobile" and we can have essays afters essays of discussion regarding this because its not so straightforward. Its so convulated precisely because theres no "law" or its not "illegal" or against any guideline that vanilla fanservice designs are not allowed. Imagine if there were laws regarding how much skin is allowed to be shown, reminds me of sharia law and how ridiculous this concept is. Thats why you will see devs doing erratic shit like censoring one design and not the other or censoring one game and not the other in both mobile/console games. This whole radical sjw feminist concept of 'fanservice is not ok" is so mainstream that devs are conscious of this while creating and ultimately its the decision makers/devs/higher ups if they want to stick to their guns or just censor. Theres other talking points too regarding CERO rating standards and lots of misinformation surrounding it but I dont feel like going there now.

Personally I have no faith in AI translations to do the job any better than "localizers" now, I have seen western made/controlled AI programs like Chatgpt and its just filled with far left mental illness bullshit, maybe japanese made ones are better but idk how or if they are. One good thing about AI is these "localizers" losing their jobs and positions I guess but I feel that its too late. The only solution to all this bullshit is creators/devs conscious of this poison existing and having the balls to not bend the knee to localizers, western branches, twitter ,retardera etc etc. Unfortunately its not so easy to stand your ground when everyone is against it and not many are willing or able to sustain themselves doing it. I have no faith in consumers or anyone else to change the current shit we have to deal with now.

This is supposed to be a gacha model discussion thread and I am writing essays about vanila fanservice censorship

 

[JX475]

Zurathetix said:
Yeah its a mixture of a lot of factors and not just one. Localizers/sjw colonizers completely taking over western branches and having a say in development, impression manipulation through social media and forums like retardera, journos constantly attacking fanservice, platform holder guidelines etc etc. All of this dates back to even back to early/mid 2010s when japanese games were known for censoring overseas (non-jp) releases. It all snowballed because of the above mentioned points to what we have now that not only it is censored even in japan but these people actually partake in censorship during the development process. We have direct quotes from localizers saying they censor cleavage and skirts because of "metoo" to japanese companies internal documents bringing up fucking radical feminist points like females showing skin is not ok but its ok for males.

Do not forget ESG which has died recently. I have a strange feeling a lot of this is not organic due to things like Meto, Feminist Frequency, a lot of of it being organization based and is most likely being funded by America itself as a pressure campaign to Japan by proxy. None of these movements are ever really organic in nature, and if you follow the money you will always find it's tied back to some philanthropy organization funded by NGO's, Countries or billionaire types. One thing i just remembered as well is the credit card attacks to Japan for fanservice content including PIXIV and other platforms.

The whole vanila censorship discussion is not a cut and dry one like "you can get away with it on mobile" and we can have essays afters essays of discussion regarding this because its not so straightforward. Its so convulated precisely because theres no "law" or its not "illegal" or against any guideline that vanilla fanservice designs are not allowed. Imagine if there were laws regarding how much skin is allowed to be shown, reminds me of sharia law and how ridiculous this concept is. Thats why you will see devs doing erratic shit like censoring one design and not the other or censoring one game and not the other in both mobile/console games. This whole radical sjw feminist concept of 'fanservice is not ok" is so mainstream that devs are conscious of this while creating and ultimately its the decision makers/devs/higher ups if they want to stick to their guns or just censor. Theres other talking points too regarding CERO rating standards and lots of misinformation surrounding it but I dont feel like going there now.

That and each platform is different and it varies due to popularity and what it allows and the risks of allowing it. Steam for example is weird, on one hand it allowed things with Rape on one title, but on another with no rape, no sex scenes, just normal character plots, it then denies it without telling what needs to be cut and why. There is even a meme video made on it

Dungeon Travelers is an infamous one because it's just lewd designs, but they do not look abnormal, there is no sex in the game, it was re-rated as T still by the ESRB and yet Steam denied it in which was never explained why Steam did this. Or even when Steam denied Moero Crystal H but allowed Moero Chronicle, but then Nintendo allows it on their platform. It's not really consistent and sadly i agree with you there will not be any consistency until platforms are more upfront with what they will allow and why, or what should be cut to get approved and what might be done for those who want the cut content back in the game.

Personally I have no faith in AI translations to do the job any better than "localizers" now, I have seen western made/controlled AI programs like Chatgpt and its just filled with far left mental illness bullshit, maybe japanese made ones are better but idk how or if they are.

The thing about AI is you can create one of your own, you do not need to rely on other's AI to succeed. There is a lot of investment from Healthcare, Cities, Governments, even Corporations themselves. Not all of them are going to use Chatgpt, but they will buy their own AI and make what works for them and their needs. It has even been getting to the point where the Magus Bride used AI and from what reviewers were saying it's close to the Japanese version and a really solid translation with it's recent release. Just a reminder AI is in it's infancy and it's this good to be babysit by a Bilingual Japanese person.

. The only solution to all this bullshit is creators/devs conscious of this poison existing and having the balls to not bend the knee to localizers, western branches, twitter ,retardera etc etc. Unfortunately its not so easy to stand your ground when everyone is against it and not many are willing or able to sustain themselves doing it. I have no faith in consumers or anyone else to change the current shit we have to deal with now.

It's as simple as eliminating the middle man. Cut out the American Branch's down to size with no Translation Teams, and only have them do PR like Nintendo did with Treehouse, then use AI and do it in-house. It may not be perfect but it will be better than what we have currently, because then developers can just focus on making games rather than listening to some crazy person who thinks they know the world better than everyone else.

This is supposed to be a gacha model discussion thread and I am writing essays about vanila fanservice censorship

It happens lol.

 

[Zurathetix]

Do not forget ESG which has died recently. I have a strange feeling a lot of this is not organic due to things like Meto, Feminist Frequency, a lot of of it being organization based and is most likely being funded by America itself as a pressure campaign to Japan by proxy. None of these movements are ever really organic in nature, and if you follow the money you will always find it's tied back to some philanthropy organization funded by NGO's, Countries or billionaire types. One thing i just remembered as well is the credit card attacks to Japan for fanservice content including PIXIV and other platforms.

Right I forgot to list this, the onset of ESG might also explain how this ideology gained such a strong foothold in decision making stages.

That and each platform is different and it varies due to popularity and what it allows and the risks of allowing it. Steam for example is weird, on one hand it allowed things with Rape on one title, but on another with no rape, no sex scenes, just normal character plots, it then denies it without telling what needs to be cut and why. There is even a meme video made on it

Dungeon Travelers is an infamous one because it's just lewd designs, but they do not look abnormal, there is no sex in the game, it was re-rated as T still by the ESRB and yet Steam denied it in which was never explained why Steam did this. Or even when Steam denied Moero Crystal H but allowed Moero Chronicle, but then Nintendo allows it on their platform. It's not really consistent and sadly i agree with you there will not be any consistency until platforms are more upfront with what they will allow and why, or what should be cut to get approved and what might be done for those who want the cut content back in the game.

Yeah I am aware of steam's approval shenanigans. Only one of the DTs got accepted into steam and thats only with the Adults only tag. Unfortunately (?) I classify stuff like DT and Moekuri as a step above vanila fanservice just because it is loli fanservice. Loli is cracked down a lot compared to other kinds of fanservice and is sometimes outright banned by boards such as Australia. To be honest I am surprised CH and Eastasiasoft managed to release Moe (crystal and chronicle) and Mugen (souls and z) both uncensored on switch with the copious amounts of loli fanservice and touching. I think a couple of them even got banned in australia.

 

[JX475]

Right I forgot to list this, the onset of ESG might also explain how this ideology gained such a strong foothold in decision making stages.

Yeah I am aware of steam's approval shenanigans. Only one of the DTs got accepted into steam and thats only with the Adults only tag. Unfortunately (?) I classify stuff like DT and Moekuri as a step above vanila fanservice just because it is loli fanservice. Loli is cracked down a lot compared to other kinds of fanservice and is sometimes outright banned by boards such as Australia. To be honest I am surprised CH and Eastasiasoft managed to release Moe (crystal and chronicle) and Mugen (souls and z) both uncensored on switch with the copious amounts of loli fanservice and touching. I think a couple of them even got banned in australia.

I think with ESG gone it should help with everything currently and we will most likely see companies pivot away and the pressure begin to wind down.

I can agree. Neptunia to me feels like baseline and DT, Moekuri definitely are a grade above it. Steam is weird on lolli types. Australia is the worst in terms of bans, they make America look tame by comparison. Even worse is Canada where if you even have a VN with a lolli in it you could get a visit from the mountee police. America still has storefronts that could take it. Especially GOG and JAST. I am hoping Japan tries to get to other storefronts soon.

 

[Ebicentre]

Yeah this is what I mean by wasted talent. Yoko Taro has made some great games over the years that people will remember him by, but will a single person remember him by all the failed gachashit he has had a hand in lately? Will anyone want to go back and experience those games again (if they even could) 10 years from now?

It's sad that there is just going to be a blank void in this era of gaming history when we look back, because all the money poured into these games is not going to leave a trace behind when the service ends, unlike the retro games we still enjoy today.

Square Enix is by far the worst offender when it comes to gacha shit. They've ended literal DOZENS of mobile games in the past decade.

 

[Narmy]

Square Enix is by far the worst offender when it comes to gacha shit. They've ended literal DOZENS of mobile games in the past decade.

That's a good thing since it damages confidence in the business model. I wish more companies would take the money and run.

 

[Rama]

That's a good thing since it damages confidence in the business model. I wish more companies would take the money and run.

But that's exactly what they're doing (take the money and run). Many people seems to be under the impression that companies like SE starting gacha games and EOS them in a year are losing money chasing trends but it's the complete opposite. That's how they MAKE money.

To make it sounds simple: company A makes a gacha in 6 months, promotes for 2 months, operates for 3 and shut down by the end of the year. If what they make equals to all the labor cost and expenses + 10% ( usually much more) then that's already profits. For them it's better than letting their money rot in a bank for 2% a year or risk doing a new IP where they can actually lose money. Milking old IPs is safe and everyone loves doing this nowadays, especially the suits in conservative Japan.

To be clear, i'm not saying it's a good thing (for us, the players). I'm saying it's what they do.

 

[Narmy]

But that's exactly what they're doing (take the money and run). Many people seems to be under the impression that companies like SE starting gacha games and EOS them in a year are losing money chasing trends but it's the complete opposite. That's how they MAKE money.

To make it sounds simple: company A makes a gacha in 6 months, promotes for 2 months, operates for 3 and shut down by the end of the year. If what they make equals to all the labor cost and expenses + 10% ( usually much more) then that's already profits. For them it's better than letting their money rot in a bank for 2% a year or risk doing a new IP where they can actually lose money. Milking old IPs is safe and everyone loves doing this nowadays, especially the suits in conservative Japan.

To be clear, i'm not saying it's a good thing (for us, the players). I'm saying it's what they do.

I know that they are making money. My point is that shutting these games down left and right makes people confront the fact that they don't actually own the stuff they are throwing their money away on, which will hopefully make them less receptive to these types of games in the future. People aren't going to wake up as easily if they are complacent and think the gacha they love will live forever.

 

[Rama]

I know that they are making money. My point is that shutting these games down left and right makes people confront the fact that they don't actually own the stuff they are throwing their money away on, which will hopefully make them less receptive to these types of games in the future. People aren't going to wake up as easily if they are complacent and think the gacha they love will live forever.

Well i do hope you're right. But then again most people have the attention span of a gold fish nowadays, thanks to social media and tiktok. If anything i see a divide in the consumer base. Older people like us get even more wary of those practices and blacklist those companies, meanwhile the younger generation grew up thinking the online model is the norm. Apparently the majority of games are being sold as digital now and the majority of kids PREFER the digital version. They don't care about ownership, just the experience.

I don't wanna sound like a doomer here but whenever i try to talk IRL about how bad the industry practices have become (always online, unfinished games, bugs, 1st day patches, DLC, etc...) i'm being treated like a boomer. Kids can't miss what they don't grew up with.