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Discussion Question regarding how one justifies lolicon/shotacon

bsterx_

varishangout.com
Hi,

Before I start, just want to clear one major thing up. This thread is in no way an effort to shame or an attack on anyone! I am genuinely curious as to the moral justification surrounding sexualised depictions of children in anime, and to further, pornographic renditions of such figures in hentai and manga.

I personally am conflicted with this issue, and I try hold the view that sexualised material ie lolicon/shotacon in anime and manga— both pornographic and non-pornographic— is unethical and immoral. I'm conflicted as I have sometimes viewed this material and it has gripped my conscious for about 3-4 years. I frequently wish I was not like this, and that rather than feeling arousal I would feel disgust and I think that this has been damaging my esteem and self-conception— either way its unhealthy.

I'd like to better understand how people here are able to justify for themselves the sexual attraction to lolis/shotas. I find it difficult to personally accept an argument which is able to separate paedophilia away from lolicon/shotacon, because to be honest what I have seen, albeit animated and fictional, are ultimately sexual depictions of children.

I hope no one found this as an attack or me shaming, I am just hoping to see the perspective people on the forum have on this.

Cheers,
 

immahnoob

varishangout.com
Regular
Patron of the Forums
Lolicon/Shotacon is not real, you can't be a pedophile without being attracted to actual children.
 

Halo

varishangout.com
Regular
Lolicon/Shotacon is not real, you can't be a pedophile without being attracted to actual children.
he asked how you justify it, but anyway
I personally am conflicted with this issue,
why care so much. what's there to gain, and it looks from your post theres been literally nothing to gain from it.
So either stop caring, or let it keep "damaging [your] esteem and self-conception"
 

Halo

varishangout.com
Regular
That's how you "justify it", they're not sexual depictions of children in the first place, they're not related to pedophilia.
I try hold the view that sexualised material ie lolicon/shotacon in anime and manga— both pornographic and non-pornographic— is unethical and immoral.
cool, but that doesn't answer the question when he finds it "unethical and immoral".


I find it difficult to personally accept an argument which is able to separate paedophilia away from lolicon/shotacon
You did answer the second part of him saying this, but you skipped the first, and more important, part.
 

immahnoob

varishangout.com
Regular
Patron of the Forums
cool, but that doesn't answer the question when he finds it "unethical and immoral".



You did answer the second part of him saying this, but you skipped the first, and more important, part.
Why else does he find it "unethical and immoral" if not for the usual kneejerk reaction of "omg pedophilia"?
I can't accurately fix his moral code or ethical code without knowing what it's based on anyway, so if it's the "usual", then "it's not real" answers that question as well and fixes his gripes with the fact that he beat his meat to it.
 

NretsewThePerv

varishangout.com
Regular
let me have a crack at the "its not real" angle that's a bit more in-depth and might work better

the key factor here is that they are anime kids, not real kids and this is a massive difference, look at any random loli you see online and tell me if it looks anything like how a real kid would look in real life. even if we ignore the massive eyes and body proportions I think you would be hard-pressed to find a real human child that looks anything like an anime character. and this is why I think people attracted to loli are more often than not. more attracted to the anime aesthetic than they are to the fact it's a child. now we can't lie and say pedos prob don't also find loli attractive. but for the vast majority of people into it if you ask them they will tell you they are into loli and only loli and have no attraction to any form of real-life kids. loli is an abstraction of a real-life thing and its possible to be into the abstraction and not what it is meant to represent

and you can find this in a lot of fetishes. furries like it or not are the prime over side of the coin to loli. even tho there are in fact dog fuckers who are furries id say the vast majority of furries like furry characters due to the fact they are a fictional abstraction and are attracted to that aesthetic raver than what it's meant to represent. and you can do this with a lot of fetishes, rape, gore, vore, heaps of people have this fetish yet would never want to partake in them IRL as it's a fantasy. they are into the idea of these things, but would not want to do them in realty

so looping back around I think the key issue OP has is they think loli is "sexual depictions of children" when that's only a half-truth. its sexual depictions of anime children, if you look at an IRL kid and your dick twitches then you have a fucken problem, but as long as you don't look at kids at a playground and pop a bonder you are prob just a normal sane person who has a silly fetish for anime lolis that's perfectly normal and controllable unless you are a fucken Coomer jackin off 24/7

so even tho you said it you find it hard to accept arguments there is a difference and separation between loli and real-life kids, the fact of the matter is that there is and liking anime loli don't correlate with being into IRL kids and if you are able to separate reality from fantasy it should not be too hard to understand

i hope this helps or at least gets you to think a bit more about this
 

Grönsak

varishangout.com
Hi,

Before I start, just want to clear one major thing up. This thread is in no way an effort to shame or an attack on anyone! I am genuinely curious as to the moral justification surrounding sexualised depictions of children in anime, and to further, pornographic renditions of such figures in hentai and manga.

I personally am conflicted with this issue, and I try hold the view that sexualised material ie lolicon/shotacon in anime and manga— both pornographic and non-pornographic— is unethical and immoral. I'm conflicted as I have sometimes viewed this material and it has gripped my conscious for about 3-4 years. I frequently wish I was not like this, and that rather than feeling arousal I would feel disgust and I think that this has been damaging my esteem and self-conception— either way its unhealthy.

I'd like to better understand how people here are able to justify for themselves the sexual attraction to lolis/shotas. I find it difficult to personally accept an argument which is able to separate paedophilia away from lolicon/shotacon, because to be honest what I have seen, albeit animated and fictional, are ultimately sexual depictions of children.

I hope no one found this as an attack or me shaming, I am just hoping to see the perspective people on the forum have on this.

Cheers,
You have been brainwashed by the system. I don't have your moral code there for I don't see the issue with lines drawn on a paper. And I've been into loli long before this stupid debate even was a thing. Around 2007 it was a normal hentai category and no one cared. This is just a recent thing that is just stupid.
 

Migi

varishangout.com
Regular
I'm not here for the lolicon/Shotacon ordeal. I'm here for the localization and translation one, but I think you need to keep into account that they are fictional characters, so it's kinda pointless to complain about it.

People seem to worry about the sexual depiction of minors in anime yet keep forgetting the major problem with the actual society. With that, I mean the example that the biggest society (Islamic) that sexually abuses children for real is getting a free pass and ignored while the SJW are focused on something in imagination land. Just focus on what is objective truth of what harms people in reality and what is just a bunch of pixels on your PC screen.

If you want to be moral or ethical, you might as well say that everything you see that is bad could lead to more immoral behavior. So you might as well be Celibate and become a monk.

I have a theory why people seem attracted to characters that look young. I personally think most of it comes from the fact that the nuclear family has been destroyed, so people are looking for something pure to believe in. For some, it's just pure sadism, hence why I don't believe people in general are born good. It all depends on how you perceive it yourself and society as a whole will always out of fear label everything as the same if just a few finds it morally wrong, because everybody is afraid of being on the so-called wrong side of history.

Just look at how people are pushing the idea of being white is bad in university, while factually in history every country has had slavery and if you let yourself be pushed down by a group of people that want to indoctrinate you with their own sense of justice regardless of the logic behind it being corrupt. You'll be beating yourself down on something that isn't true. And with the fictional vs reality, you get the same psychological effect of people wanting to label both the same.

I do understand the moral or ethical problem you would be getting, seeing as society or at least the people that proclaim themselves to be morally just love to stigmatize certain aspect of anime if they don't like it. But the people that seem to bash Lolicon in general always end up being arrested for the real thing.

In case you never followed One angry gamer, here is a list of people that proclaimed themselves as being morally just but turned out to be scumbag individuals: https://archive.vn/wQkR3

Just see it as this, Islam forbids everything fictional or even morally wrong, and they are the biggest real life kid fuckers around.
 
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Grönsak

varishangout.com
I'm not here for the lolicon/Shotacon ordeal. I'm here for the localization and translation one, but I think you need to keep into account that they are fictional characters, so it's kinda pointless to complain about it.

People seem to worry about the sexual depiction of minors in anime yet keep forgetting the major problem with the actual society. With that, I mean the example that the biggest society (Islamic) that sexually abuses children for real is getting a free pass and ignored while the SJW are focused on something in imagination land. Just focus on what is objective truth of what harms people in reality and what is just a bunch of pixels on your PC screen.

If you want to be moral or ethical, you might as well say that everything you see that is bad could lead to more immoral behavior. So you might as well be Celibate and become a monk.

I have a theory why people seem attracted to characters that look young. I personally think most of it comes from the fact that the nuclear family has been destroyed, so people are looking for something pure to believe in. For some, it's just pure sadism, hence why I don't believe people in general are born good. It all depends on how you perceive it yourself and society as a whole will always out of fear label everything as the same if just a few finds it morally wrong, because everybody is afraid of being on the so-called wrong side of history.

Just look at how people are pushing the idea of being white is bad in university, while factually in history every country has had slavery and if you let yourself be pushed down by a group of people that want to indoctrinate you with their own sense of justice regardless of the logic behind it being corrupt. You'll be beating yourself down on something that isn't true. And with the fictional vs reality, you get the same psychological effect of people wanting to label both the same.

I do understand the moral or ethical problem you would be getting, seeing as society or at least the people that proclaim themselves to be morally just love to stigmatize certain aspect of anime if they don't like it. But the people that seem to bash Lolicon in general always end up being arrested for the real thing.

In case you never followed One angry gamer, here is a list of people that proclaimed themselves as being morally just but turned out to be scumbag individuals: https://archive.vn/wQkR3

Just see it as this Islam forbids everything fictional or even morally wrong, and they are the biggest real life kid fucker around.
I don't think i can give you a big enough thumbs up.​


129-1292987_anime-clipart-thumbs-up-saga-of-tanya-the.png
 

Migi

varishangout.com
Regular
I don't think i can give you a big enough thumbs up.​
For me, it's more about what is more morally just in the factuality of reality. Most people like to conflate things in an invert illogical reasoning, either out of fear or lack of understanding. And I debate a lot of this crap, I am very anti-Islam, hence why I have a rebuttal towards the immorality of lolicon or anime in general when it comes to the content it depicts.

The destruction of the nuclear family has really corrupted us. Most people are really become bitter and are only fighting one another, so they can pretend to be morally just and think they can impress women that were never interested in them in the first place. There is barely anything you could consider morally pure anymore, especially in relationships. The Japanese reflect that society the best. Hence, why I think lolicon is more acceptable there because nearly every woman in Japan at one time worked in the AV industry, and it really is a stigma, because as they say, men like whores, but they don't respect them.

In the end, actions matter more than words. So judge the person on his actions and not on the words he says. But this still remains a more moral and ethical problem for the wider audience, and I do think that will never change, or maybe it shouldn't for the simple reason why the Trans community is trying to normalize something that might be dangerous for real children. The main problem is that the extreme elements/individuals tend to take over the narrative. For Japan itself, it's far more different on how we handle or perceive things.

Like the main post says, there will still stay a moral and ethical problem. But not in the fact it is fictional or not, but on an individual level it will remain very conflicted, then there is the fact that some people will use this as a way to push the real thing, that is why I mentioned the Trans community and the fact that a lot of actual sexual predators are amongs them using the Trans community as a cover for their real sexual perversions.
 
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monkeyman

varishangout.com
Just think about the reason CP was banned in the first place, and everything should be clear. CP is not banned because a loli body is some mythical amazing thing that no one is allowed to be attracted to, it was banned to protect children because they are not mentally mature enough to make that kind of decisions.
There is nothing wrong with liking the loli body type, real life woman of age that look like that exist, do they not deserve love? That is basically body shaming.
 

ninja8tyu

varishangout.com
Regular
haven't bothered to read the things above

simply put: morality is mainly determined by "harm"
nothing is immoral simply because of some arbitrary principle, ie. disgust, religion
lolicon has never been proven to "harm" anyone, nor encourage "harm" of those who consume it, nor suggest correlation between those consumers and "harm"

therefore

if your claim is that "lolicon is pedophilia," then by including lolicons in whatever definition arbitrary used in this conversation or other places, then simply put, being a pedophile isn't immoral, as there exist some subgroup in that label which does not "harm," and thus i don't see any issue with that beyond flawed preconceived notions from culture or simply disgust from self.

ta-da.
 
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