Discussion Sinder & Silvervale (potential partners or clash bound to happen?)

[Misan]

This is just my own take on this subject/spin.

Currently on the Western side of Vtubers, there are two among them their own fanbase dudded as ''cozy wolf both wholesome and lewd''

Silvervale & Sinder

Silvervale, the sakura wolf goddess vtuber
Sinder, the hellhound wolf vtuber

Many artists and fans have mentionned the similarities of both across the current year of Sinder arrival in the Vtuber world. Arts like those above made them have the only exchanges on social medias between both and it seem generally nice and supportive. Overall, nothing could come out of it and maybe this is a case of looking too much into a casual detail.

However, I'm not convinced.

Considering they have both many similar friends in their small respective circles of collaborators and being both friendly and supportive to other Vtubers - it is quite odd they never actually have been in the same group collab together even once (just like two people invited by the gang to a big party, but they never are seen even once close to each other), so maybe there is actually something brewing that just waits to happen.

Also, Sinder 1 year career as Vtuber is a decent one... but maybe too decent for someone with a new Vtubing career. Granted, she isn't a superstar in that business and maybe her own climb to fame will bring out more of her flops/dirts as drama gets out. With her doing a signature of posters for her fandom during 1 year anniversary before (which Silver did in Aug 22 for her own fandom), this just seems too convenient, as if Sinder more than often do take the lessons/failures/successes learned across Silvervale own career to make her own success happen. Once or twice could have been classed under coincidence, but we are way beyond the usual.

Why it takes my fancy at this point is that contrary to Vei calling out Shylily for copying her voice and the drama dying rather quickly after the brief accusation, this seems like the elephant in the room no one is sure to bring up as a subject for many months now. And those things have the potential to blow up way out of poportion and make a lot of dirt than an initial quick outburst can make, expecially when they lie in wait for so long (or they are seethed quietly).

And where copyrights infringements are quite common in the creative content creators world, maybe people should be made aware of this potential heat between both when the dirt start flying. Especially if/when Sinder career manage to skyrocket in years to come, while Silver's own stale and go down.

I will add later on the following three aspects on this discussion (best scenario to worst one):
- Potential collaborators / partners for a dynamic duo;
- The new blood taking over; and
- Sinder, the collateral damage from the coming Silvervale timebomb

 

[Bingus405]

Personally speaking I view it as thus...

- The Shylily x Vei drama was honestly the product of people baiting Vei about it. She had to put up with them repeatedly bringing Lily up and I don't really blame Vei for exploding. It's why a LOT of Vtubers have literally banned the discussion of other entertainers on their streams. This is important because...

- I might be forgetting something but Silver hasn't really gone IN on people much. Sure she threw a /LITTLE dirt at her previous colleagues at Vshojo but that was par for the course considering the stream was ABOUT the leave.

- I don't think they'll work together. Silver is definitely a bit of a black sheep for a lot of people and she subsists mainly on her existing diehard fanbase. She hasn't really grown all that much and that isn't likely to change. Sind all the while is enjoying a steady rise of support and there really isn't much a reason to potentially bog herself down with someone who's only relation to her is a similar Streamer-vibe. It'd be like suggesting Yoko and Gura start collabing together, no relation aside similarity. (The two are very similar and Yoko has admitted Gura was her inspiration to try streaming.)

I expect absolutely nothing to come out of this. They're going to continue quietly co-existing with each other because cooperation doesn't gurantee anything. Silver has her clique of horny-tuber buds like Cottontail and she's unlikely to branch out anytime soon after seemingly being burned by Vshojo's girls. Sind all the while likewise wouldn't gain anything from interacting with her either.

Sure. Fans of both would probably enjoy the chemistry they bring to the table together, however....

Silver stands to only potentially LOSE followers who might hop onto the new-chick band wagon- and Sind inversely is unlikely to gain any new major followers because Silver fans are pretty loyal at this point after everything that's come out about her.

Also as an optimistic end point. I don't think there'll be much dirt on Sinder. As much as we all love some good drama and dumb shit e-celebs get up to. Simply put the mass majority of the time most of them are pretty...average? Like I could probably name a solid 10 vtubers who don't have any rrats in the West and aren't in Hololive.

 

[Misan]

Personally speaking I view it as thus...

- The Shylily x Vei drama was honestly the product of people baiting Vei about it. She had to put up with them repeatedly bringing Lily up and I don't really blame Vei for exploding. It's why a LOT of Vtubers have literally banned the discussion of other entertainers on their streams. This is important because...

- I might be forgetting something but Silver hasn't really gone IN on people much. Sure she threw a /LITTLE dirt at her previous colleagues at Vshojo but that was par for the course considering the stream was ABOUT the leave.

- I don't think they'll work together. Silver is definitely a bit of a black sheep for a lot of people and she subsists mainly on her existing diehard fanbase. She hasn't really grown all that much and that isn't likely to change. Sind all the while is enjoying a steady rise of support and there really isn't much a reason to potentially bog herself down with someone who's only relation to her is a similar Streamer-vibe. It'd be like suggesting Yoko and Gura start collabing together, no relation aside similarity. (The two are very similar and Yoko has admitted Gura was her inspiration to try streaming.)

I expect absolutely nothing to come out of this. They're going to continue quietly co-existing with each other because cooperation doesn't gurantee anything. Silver has her clique of horny-tuber buds like Cottontail and she's unlikely to branch out anytime soon after seemingly being burned by Vshojo's girls. Sind all the while likewise wouldn't gain anything from interacting with her either.

Sure. Fans of both would probably enjoy the chemistry they bring to the table together, however....

Silver stands to only potentially LOSE followers who might hop onto the new-chick band wagon- and Sind inversely is unlikely to gain any new major followers because Silver fans are pretty loyal at this point after everything that's come out about her.

Also as an optimistic end point. I don't think there'll be much dirt on Sinder. As much as we all love some good drama and dumb shit e-celebs get up to. Simply put the mass majority of the time most of them are pretty...average? Like I could probably name a solid 10 vtubers who don't have any rrats in the West and aren't in Hololive.

I pretty much share the same opinion on the matter, but I still would like to lay down all the potential/possibilities (which is why I prefered to put it seperately than jam it in any thread already made). I do however believe Silver may branch out from the very old clique of horny-tubers, since her steady stream collab is with Rob at visiting Japan or when she does with Mira only (also, when was the last time she was with Cottontail?).

My only take on the optimist side is both, as their nature of being blacksheeps, could be the only ones to make something like that happen, if they so choose, despite no immediate gain at the start.

My worst account is that entertainment business is and will always be a highly comptetitive workplace. Shitstorm still bound to happen, even if very unlikely (which just means the factors to make it happen aren't there yet).

 

[Misan]

Part 1 - Partnership / Collab on common interests

Spoilers - this is the most unlikely scenario to happen, especially in a very competitive area where your success is based by numbers of viewers but sometimes it is good to mention it so people have a better bearing why the more likely one will happen.

The main point is that while working under the same stream-vibe, both operate under quite differently on the details.

Sinder is a the start of her career and doesn't have too much (if any dirt) around her / while Silver have a lot more years under her belt (and more dirt, especially in the passing year). Sinder is a steady ASMR RP creator with clear boundaries, while Silver is a hardcore gamer who shows up on her streams a lot of indie/cozy games (which I don't believe Sinder have gone beyond AAA or well-known games on her own). Sinder is willing to show up in person on conventions and stream her collabs, while the insular nature of Silver make her public appearances almost non-existent and the collabs she streams are very few in between.

Basically, they are polar opposites despite the semi-similar vibe of stream each make and at being kind of blacksheeps. While this more often than not lead for polar opposite to stay out of each other hairs because of tension to work with someone with a complete different take on the same subject you are good at (ego issues mostly), the potential still remains that each can complement the other, countering the flaws of the other with their own specific strengths.

Sinder's benefits:
- She can get more from a veteran like Silver about background work, organisation, wide world of indie gaming and computer tech details on how to make certain things work;
- Having made many songs without getting bad review from them, Silver can assist Sinder in her next attempt at making the next singing project;
- Despite the rrats around her, Silver still benefits on an average basic the clemency of the community at large, as well as a very loyal fandom (and those things aren't there without the product of a steady amount of work and personnality);
- Despite being on a steady climb, Sinder is still a streamer aiming for only a small portion of the mainstream audience (like Silvervale). She will inevitably get caught up in front of the same wall Silver is dealing with right now, sooner or later. When you climb over a wall, it is easier to work together as a team. Common interests can make the best partners out of others you may not necessary go out at first with.

Silvervale's benefits:
- With her past year, Silver is clearly experiencing fatigue from all the drama she got caught up on. She did express at times on her past streams a want to leave the 'idol' side of Vtubing and be more a gamer streamer with just a Vtuber avatar;
- While having a loyal community, a lot are making a steady request at Silvervale for doing ASMR (which she never got the hang of it). Sinder being a professionnal at it for two years, she could assist Silver at being more confortable and better at it);
- While not saying she must diss her friends from VSJ and ex-VSJ, Silver clearly need to be less collabing with people making the front page on the net for rrats all the time (again the curse of being a shit magnet) and Sinder seems steady enough as a Vtuber to provide an option instead of isolating herself from anyone. Besides, both having done collabs with Yoclesh, Porcelainmaid and many other indies, so it isn't like they don't have common friends that can arrange them to collab together for a first time wtihout having to do it by themselves;
- Sinder being a new blood and her enthusiasm to make their gig work could help Silvervale remember what she liked at her own beginning years and make her get the flame back for it. (Again, Silver is hanging out very often with people for fun, but there isn't any actual project with them.) She may be a gaming gremlin and NEET, but the entertainment business can be a very lonely place without a team to help you. VSJ ended up being a bad choice to gain that team of streamers to work with you, but that shouldn't stop her at reaching out to others that could benefit with teamwork.

The benefits each other could get from a partnership of common interests aren't short-termed or in the easily gained category. However, with the specific vibe streamer ''blacksheep'' of their own group / generation of Vtubers, both are bound to end up facing the same wall on their career path - with no one else giving them a hand at it. Again, Silver is clearly facing that wall (at the crossroad of her career to stale for good) and Vei and Nyanners aren't the ones that will help her (because they have a different take on their own career or they don't have the same perspective about it).

Sometimes the partners you are looking for aren't the ones you have the easiest fun when you hang out with them, but those who actually work with you to make a project happen. And the best partners are complementing you (countering your flaws as you do the same for them), so you both make an incredible whole for your audience to enjoy.

 

[Misan]

Part 2 - Newblood takeover ?

While the most likely scenario on the long-term, many factors still need to be there for it to happen.

All in all, Sinder will certainly take over Silvervale 'blacksheep' role in the community by winning where her predecessor fails constantly on a single aspect; PR.

The insular and NEET nature of Silvervale will always prevent her to expand, not matter how much she would like to follow her 'friends'. She needs to get out more of her comfort zone, but always seems to end up flopping on her given occasions or she gets entangled by someone else drama (most of the time from one of her 'friends'). While she has the rights to choose her said friends, she definitively make bad judgement calls on collabing with shitters and drama-queens, which gets her to lose points at her own value as a cozy streamer. Bad publicity and dramas don't help Silvervale, because she doesn't have enough of a tough skin to not care about it like the others do. Each one of them are taking her down to where she seems to be experiencing fatigue, if not a burnout.

So, Sinder huge advantage is on her capacity to go out, meet people by being herself and constantly showing any common/basic manual talents that is part to the Vtubing culture (like cosplaying) but still adds more than the average Vtuber itself. Those are very good PR points and it is only a matter of time before she gets some offerings (challenges) and show to the world what she is made of as an entertainer.

However, this doesn't mean Silvervale career is over yet. Yes, her best surges are in the past, but she does have a loyal fandom (which she seems to have put a lot of effort to make her own community a place where people like to stay, not just for her) so lets give her credits on this achievement. On the other hand, those same fans aren't there forever. Some will grow out of it, some will move on with their lives, and some will die or be homeless. Reality is that these fans aren't a permanent value in the equation to make a living. Like everyone else, she needs to bring a constant stream of new fans to stay afloat, but it is hard when your number of streams keeps on dwingling (on the net, your absence is always a career death sentence). Again, she could rebound if she manage to recollect herself. Which can happen because her current fandom may support enough for her to recuperate, but she won't be able to keep this act for very long.

Being a very passionnate gamer, Silvervale's other advantage is to bring forth many indie games that not a lot of streamers will bother to even mention. While this may be counter-productive when everyone else as streamers go for the popular ones to stay current with the mainstream audience, she have her own works done by having the monopoly on a niche market that is borderline empty of competitors for well-done but not well-known games.

Again, Sinder will most likely surpass Silvervale in time because she may actually succeed where Silver haven't manage to when the opportunities were given to her. While there isn't a lot of immediate impact for Silvervale own career either yet, the entertainement business will always be a gig - run against the clock to stay relevant for an audience with severe attention span. Creators won't always stay under the scope of the 'new stuff' and they will always be replaced by younger and/or more motivated ones that still wants to make their own place as time goes on, and this is mostly done by pushing aside the older ones. (You're old news), (The future is here, old man) and (Ok boomer) are just the simple expression of a constant competitive environment against the people above you, those who climbs the ladder at the same time as you do and the ones following your footsteps.

 

[Misan]

Part 3 - Downfall

That scenario is basically Silvervale isolating herself from the rest of the mainstream audience, making rare projects for her community only (which will end up going nowhere or not being substantial) - that remaining financial anchor as a streamer and Sinder succeeding beyond Silver own past achievements because she have better traits or make better choices than her careerwise as a content creator. I do base this possiblity a little with that tension between Silvervale and Ironmouse. Was it really a simple question of not calling back as any friend should, or more that Silver was enjoying being the helpful senior in their first years of interactions and soon was left in the dust as Ironmouse career skyrocket and she took more of a lead role then?

People can be petty for the smallest things, even nice ones like Silver. And anyone always take the hit hard when time finally makes them seem too old and outdated when there are better (younger) prospects outside. Just like thots always become bitter and crazier when their grow to become nothing else than old bags of traumas, while the next batch of horny youngsters push them aside to get the attention (and the money).

So, how will she take that slight as a content creator when a copycat (so far) succeed more at it than her in their business, especially as/if her own numbers dwindle and drops in time ? Silver have never shown any emotionnal stability to analyse herself and try to make her content better. (As she mentionned before, she don't believe in the importance of numbers for making a good career or judging who is good at it.) Vei reaction towards Shylily was a defensive one against her own insecurities, but at least it was done and brief. What about Silver, who have shown many times to hold on to an issue (even for 8 months) in silence before coming out clumsily about it ? If and when that scenario happens, clearly Silvervale won't take it with grace and dirt will fly (and maybe this time the response will be less than polite by the community). My opinion is that with Silvervale doing less collab (if not stopping) with the common friends she have with Sinder, she is pretty much taking on her own the first steps to isolate herself and being bitter about her insecurities because (again) she doesn't want to actually engage on the matter and solve her constant problems. So, again, Silver will find others to blame for her downfall than herself.

In reality, when that happen, nothing big will come out really from that sea of dramas the world of entertainment is. It will just be another nail added to Silver's own coffin for her career and audience's sympathy. For Sinder, certaintly there will be some shock and bitterness that someone who seems to insprire her so much would consider her in very poor view (if not downright hostility).

Nobody likes to be the collateral damage of someone else time bomb blowing off.

Or just being at wrong place, wrong time.

 

[Bingus405]

One of two things get to happen to you bro.
1. One of your predictions happen and you're a legendary caller.
2. Nothing happens and you spent an hour or two shizo posting.

We'll find out in a couple months.

Either way I give a like in solidarity.

 

[Misan]

Well, I don't expect the legendary caller nickname to arrive anytime. What I did was mostly writing details and observations, as you go through every facets of a puzzle.

And with some of the spins-off put across the forum, this thread will just be one among many.

It was just my choice to seperate it from any other threads instead - so at least the subject isn't spread and lost among many others.

Whatever comes in a year or two will not matter, since so many other unmentioned things could happen.

 

[Misan]

As of today

Sinder
Twitch 120k
Youtube 103k

Silvervale
Twitch 463k
Youtube 361k

I may bring a monthly update or just bi-year, depending how fast things progress.

Edit : decided to add some trivia as well.

Silver side:

She seems to have shed off whatever that have kept her in dramas this year. Announced her first figurine and first GGcup of herself in full-color. With her birthday coming soon, pretty sure there are more projects / merchandise on the way for her community to spend money on and that keeps her from getting wrap-up in some stupid bullshit.

Sinder side:

Got herself a new model - demon hellbound queen from Nanoless (same who did Silvervale model) - and announced her own figurine as well... and GGcup.

Amonsgold found recently some of her SFW ASMR work as Tashi.mp3, discovered she was Sinder and proceeded to subscribe to her. At this point, I see this more as Zack doing a bit to share his spotlight with her and this is more or less a promo stunt for the potential younger star to get known and for her to grow.

 

[Misan]

Sinder
Twitch 133k
Youtube 121k

Silvervale
Twitch 468k
Youtube 364k

Sinder side:
Admit to have shown up in person for some cons, which makes me wonder if new generation of Vtubers will be less insular than their predecessors (may become like voice actors - behind an avatar/character for work than show up in person during cons). Some of her collabs was with Vshojo members Haruka and Zentreya, which is good to gain awareness from the larger western audience.

Silvervale side:
Her birthday stream seems to have been a success (more than 500k of views). She got partner for Black Desert Online (a long-time favorite game of hers), and did more collabs with Mira or Rob this month than in the entire year. At this point, it may be official that her steady collaborators will be with both, since she does have a good dynamic with each.

Silvervale also seems to be more steady on her streams. (Sinder was basically doing a stream every 2/3 days while Silver was at best 2/week.) Sinder views aren't quite at the same numbers than Silver's, but she is still in her growth phase and things could change in time.

Some members of their fandoms (most are fans/patreons of both) would like a joined collab and do speak out about it here and there, but the idea doesn't gain traction on their wider fandom (again no one wants to impose/demand the idea on them) especially that Silver is known to not appreciate being pushed to do things that are outside her own plans and her discord policy is to keep mention of other streamers to a minimum.

 

[Bingus405]

Admit to have shown up in person for some cons, which makes me wonder if new generation of Vtubers will be less insular than their predecessors (may become like voice actors - behind an avatar/character for work than show up in person during cons). Some of her collabs was with Vshojo members Haruka and Zentreya, which is good to gain awareness from the larger western audience.

Western Vtubers have already become known for doing this- kind of. Sinder's still special for showing up in a space with her fans. Most others like Kson or Nyanners have yet to do that despite showing their IRL selves

 

[Misan]

Sinder
Twitch 150k
Youtube 152k

Silvervale
Twitch 474k
Youtube 369k

Sinder took the time to visit Silvervale during Twitchcon Las Vegas, as her greeting part for MYTHIC was done before Silver's. Sinder shared the picture on Twitter, but I'm not aware if Silvervale made any comment about it. Fans seemed to have enjoyed seeing both of them finally meeting each other, even if it isn't during a stream collab.

Sinder's side:
Did a live ASMR stream, as her RP channel (103k now) started to be known around the community - even going so far as adding it on her Vtuber channel of Youtube. Good to see her embracing the ASMR RP part of what she does and not trying to deny it. Did pixel art craft on 2 streams. Have shown another new model - more like a different artist take on her model than an actual change/upgrade to previous ones.

Silvervale's side:
Doing less streams (max 2 per week), but longer ones (between 8 and 10 hours). Outside of songs, seems to be working hard on an animation project. Mentionned recently the intent to stream on Youtube as well, due to Twitch allowing multistreaming now, and to have soon a model to show for Halloween - an aquatic one this time.

 

[Misan]

Western Vtubers have already become known for doing this- kind of. Sinder's still special for showing up in a space with her fans. Most others like Kson or Nyanners have yet to do that despite showing their IRL selves

I get what you mean, western Vtubers are first to show their IRL selves, but Sinder looks like ready to break that condition and go beyond the usual norms in the Vtubing community. And again, being a big girl (by her shared pictures on Twitter, even I would have to raise my eyes and tilt my head backward) Sinder may have an advantage none of her colleagues have by exploring this possibility.

 

[PhantomXero1x]

Girls hate women more than men do so if anything its 2 thots slaping each other over who's dick they take hop on the most to how stretched out their cunts are to fishy it smells to how their breaths reek of semen so if anythign its nothing new really if these girls kill each other.

 

[Misan]

Girls hate women more than men do so if anything its 2 thots slaping each other over who's dick they take hop on the most to how stretched out their cunts are to fishy it smells to how their breaths reek of semen so if anythign its nothing new really if these girls kill each other.

Isn't that most interactions among thots, though ? The reception of Melody in CB pretty much showed the insecurities for the majority of them. A competitive environment have always an amount of toxicity and the more competitive it is, backstabbing just becomes the usual.

As for Sinder & Silvervale, if there is an actual rivalry or drama between them, it is the most lowkey one going around.

 

[PhantomXero1x]

Isn't that most interactions among thots, though ? The reception of Melody in CB pretty much showed the insecurities for the majority of them. A competitive environment have always an amount of toxicity and the more competitive it is, backstabbing just becomes the usual.

As for Sinder & Silvervale, if there is an actual rivalry or drama between them, it is the most lowkey one going around.

All women tell you the truth are like that, girl on girl hate is real there is no such thing at all as sisterhood as all cliques/circlejerks fall apart.

I've seen it alot on discord on places i left and yeeted all my posts if i did made any for just really memeposting and so on shit like that because once you see wokeshit happen on servers you just get out right away insteantly.

But yeah that aside, i'm pretty sure every vtubber girl hates each other.

 

[Misan]

All women tell you the truth are like that, girl on girl hate is real there is no such thing at all as sisterhood as all cliques/circlejerks fall apart.

I've seen it alot on discord on places i left and yeeted all my posts if i did made any for just really memeposting and so on shit like that because once you see wokeshit happen on servers you just get out right away insteantly.

But yeah that aside, i'm pretty sure every vtubber girl hates each other.

Welcome to the realisation that human beings are nothing more than narcissistic creatures in search of dominating each other.

And the most evil is always from the blinded by their own self-righteousness.

 

[blackjack]

Silvervales interactions with Ironmouse, Snuffy and Filian, she already gave herself the reputation that if there was some kind of drama or beef she has with another vtuber that everyone's reaction would 1st be, OK silvervale what did you do this time instead of trying to figure out whose fault it was 1st. I only like Sinder more because she put more effort in her lewd content than Silvervale.

 

[Misan]

Silvervales interactions with Ironmouse, Snuffy and Filian, she already gave herself the reputation that if there was some kind of drama or beef she has with another vtuber that everyone's reaction would 1st be, OK silvervale what did you do this time instead of trying to figure out whose fault it was 1st. I only like Sinder more because she put more effort in her lewd content than Silvervale.

Like you always said: Silver is menhera. It is just pointless to expect someone like her to change her behaviour.

As for Sinder, with her nuking her own lewd/Tashi patreon, you're disapointment must be immense that there won't be new content.

 

[PhantomXero1x]

Welcome to the realisation that human beings are nothing more than narcissistic creatures in search of dominating each other.

And the most evil is always from the blinded by their own self-righteousness.

Yep, just look at the average twitter user honetsly.